Making a round dining table?

[goldeneyedmonkey]

Hello all,

Right, I've been asked to make a circular dining table for a client, but have never done this before. 1st of all they want the grain to be radiating outwards from the centre. Is this going to be easy to do? Considering that my TS hasn't got a very big table and has no side extensions (Makita flip-over saw I'm afraid). The mitre gauge seems fine on it. Where would you start on this?

I'm going to make a circle jig for my router, this shouldn't be too hard, but they want a spinning section in the centre (a Lazy-Susan?) Now I can think of two ways to do this: Either have a rebate on both the underside of the central disc and the top of the table that ball bearings sit in? This would be a radius slightly smaller than the central disc. Or like a parasol on an outdoor picnic table? i.e. going straight through to the base, spinning on a couple of washers and greased up.

I have had a look for previous posts but can't find any, so if anyone's done one of these before or knows any tips then please shed some light for me, as I'm definitely in the dark! :lol:

Also, if I've not explained everything in a technical manner please excuse, as I'm relatively new to this game, Cheers _Dan

 

[Carlow52]

How big is the table and how big is the lazy mary bit. The last one I saw was at a table for 24 in a Chinese place in Amsterdam

What leg(s) are envisaged?
Do they expect the grain in the 2 pieces to radiate outwards?

 

[goldeneyedmonkey]

Final measurements haven't been looked at yet, just on the design stage. But for the space it's going into, probably about 1.6m diameter for table-top & 1/4 - 1/3 of that for the centre piece.

I was going to do some type of pedestal, but I can't really machine timbers big enough with my equipment/space. So I don't know about the legs yet, they certainly won't be towards the edge of the table as it's needed for leg-room. I'm open to ideas on that front?

I suppose I could do some sort of pedestal with multiple sections joined together. But I have no lathe, so this would have to be octagonal or something.

I was also thinking about say 6 legs, all coming in from the edge of the top at an angle, so that they crossed each other in the centre and then met at the floor?

Yeah, they want the grain to radiate outwards on the whole lot. I think this will look good, but have never done anything like it before. I don't know how I'm going to join each section after it's been cut to the right angle, probably dowels as I have no Biscuit jointer or Domino (I wish :lol

Cheers_Dan

 

[goldeneyedmonkey]

How big is the table and how big is the lazy mary bit. The last one I saw was at a table for 24 in a Chinese place in Amsterdam

ha-ha, nothing on this scale, will seat 4-6. :lol:

 

[Sgian Dubh]

1st of all they want the grain to be radiating outwards from the centre. Is this going to be easy to do?

It should be relatively straightforward as long as you don't do it in solid wood and, instead, use veneering techniques over a stable ground, eg, MDF, chipboard, or even plywood.

If you do it in solid wood you are likely to end up with something similar to the images below.

The top picture is just after assembly of the 1 foot square pieces, and the picture below that is the same pieces a short while later after the wood in each had changed moisture content, either upwards or downwards as indicated by the attached Post-It notes. Slainte.

 

[Paul Chapman]

I don't know how I'm going to join each section after it's been cut to the right angle, probably dowels as I have no Biscuit jointer or Domino (I wish :lol

If you have a router, I'd rout slots and use loose tongues, which I think would be far better than dowels.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[ondablade]

To develop the hardwood option a little further. I've not done it, but you probably would if the hardwood is placed so the segments have the grain running radially (pointing to the centre) end up with at least a similarly problematical result - and for the same reason. i.e. the wider the piece cross grain, the more it will change in dimension.

I've seen a photo of a large circular dining table done in segments laid out per SD's photos except there were 8, but with a fairly large centre circle removed and replaced by what's probably a veneered MDF disc so that it's basically a annulus with a much less pronounced difference in the outer and inner circle diameters. Trouble is it still seems likely to pull.

Even if you manage to secure the joints the effect of the differential movement would probably be to cause cause it to warp out of flat. (curl like a crisp)

Maybe if they are hell bent on having radial grain direction with solid wood you could organise something a little like a frame and panel joint (or gaps, or at least a step/overlap) between the segments (each of which would have to be located by an underneath frame) so that they could freely move.

It'd not be a continuous flat surface (it'd have radially placed 'cake slice' gaps or grooves), and the grooves would vary (get wider) with movement as you moved radially outwards - but it at least might stay flat.

 

[BradNaylor]

Don't even think about making the top out of solid wood.

I would cut an octagon out of 25mm MR MDF and lip the edges with solid wood wide enough so that the required circle can now be cut leaving a fully lipped edge all round. I would then veneer the top using 8 leaves of veneer radiating out from the centre and lining up with the mitred joints of the lipping.

If you've not agreed a price yet then cost in a Bagpress system into your quote!

I've done something similar in the past using pre-veneered MDF, but boy have you got to be precise! I wouldn't recommend it.

There's a lot of work in this project and infinite scope for foook-ups, especially if you're new to veneering. You should not be charging less than £2000 for the table. I'd charge a lot more.

Cheers
Brad

PS You could always farm out the veneering. Sean at Veneering Solutions in Mossley (Ashton under Lyne) is your man.

 

[mtr1]

Don't even think about making the top out of solid wood.

I would cut an octagon out of 25mm MR MDF and lip the edges with solid wood wide enough so that the required circle can now be cut leaving a fully lipped edge all round. I would then veneer the top using 8 leaves of veneer radiating out from the centre and lining up with the mitred joints of the lipping.

If you've not agreed a price yet then cost in a Bagpress system into your quote!

I've done something similar in the past using pre-veneered MDF, but boy have you got to be precise! I wouldn't recommend it.

There's a lot of work in this project and infinite scope for foook-ups, especially if you're new to veneering. You should not be charging less than £2000 for the table. I'd charge a lot more.

Cheers
Brad

+1

Solid timber doesn't really lend itself to what you are proposing, see Richards post above too, that's what yours will look like, no matter how you reinforce it. I would either do as brad has suggested, or if they are set on solid make some kind of feature of the joints so the gaps down the line are a irrelevant.

 

[Steve Maskery]

+2

Here be dragons.

S

 

[goldeneyedmonkey]

Whoaaaa! Ok, well my client seems to think they've seen this 'radiating grain' on a table before, swore down it was 2inch pine, and had no splits and was true and flat! In my mind the only thing that would have happened when the MC went up or down, was that the table's joints would get tighter! :lol: Glad I hadn't started making it, I've got to make it out of pine to match their other stuff. So there's no chance I could charge that much.

All I could do is use an MR MDF base, then have 22mm pine on top. But by the sounds of this it won't work in the long run?!

I'm open to any suggestions. I'd love to get into vacuum veneering using a bag press, but space and money don't allow at the mo.

I've suggested just having straight boards over the top, long grain to long grain jointed. But they weren't keen! :lol:

Thanks for the advice so far chaps. _Dan

 

[jasonB]

You can get pine veneer in several species

http://www.capitalcrispin.com/veneer_index.aspx

I would not attempt it with solid. Even if you do go with solid you are going to have to make a lot of very accurate segments, assuming 225x50 unsorted redwood you would be lloking at about 23 segments to get that dia of table as the circumferance would be about 5.0m. You only need each board to shrink by say 0.5mm which would be a total of 11.5mm on the edge which will open up at least one joint if not split the wood

Jason

 

[ondablade]

Not for one moment to suggest that it's not a high risk design, but it has been done in solid - as the following recent post by a prominent 'expert' on the Felder Owner's Group shows. Note though that he lives in Arizona (very dry and stable conditions), and how much precision cutting is emphasised.

It'd be interesting to check it out in a year or two to find out if the dragons have been visiting......

Photos: http://s9.photobucket.com/albums/a88/Fo ... ble%20top/

'Book matched cherry, left over 8/4 stock from a huge island top I made
for one of my daughter's customers a couple years ago. Got tired of
moving the 12' slabs and decided to make something out of them. No
biscuits, I have found those to telegraph to the surface after a few
years, so just accurate cuts right off the slider and then into glue
up.... made a jig to hold four sections at a time, a 60º pie. then
three of those made the 180º, then straightlined the two halves again
on the slider to make sure they were straight.... which one was less
than .015", the other was off a little more, about .040", pretty good
for 12 individual pieces. Then glues the two halves together, made
long radii jigs for my router and cut the o.d and i.d, after I had
subplated it underneath with a piece of 1/2" baltic birch.

Used silicone dabs and screws alternated between every other piece of
wood inside to outside to hopefully (cross my fingers) allow for any
contraction or expansion... this stuff has been "seasoning" in my shop
for about 3 years though, so hopefully pretty stable.

Didn't do the leatherwork, or the rest of the base.... it was a table
we had for years that came from Copenhagen (the store), my wife really
loved it, but hated the glass top... so bought it expecting me to make
a wood replacement... just finally got around to it.'

 

[eoinsgaff]

I note that the centre is open in that design. Would I be correct in saying that without the centre it is more accepting of expansion/contraction?

Eoin

 

[srp]

I'm open to any suggestions. I'd love to get into vacuum veneering using a bag press, but space and money don't allow at the mo.

Space is a problem for many of us. The money, however, has to come from the customer. You really shouldn't be thinking of buying equipment from your own pocket so you can make fine furniture for a client. If I were you I'd take up Brads suggestion and add the cost of a vacuum bag and pump to the quote.

 

[p111dom]

What about not gluing it together so the individual pieces just float? I'm thinking false base underneath with a hardwood edging and hardwood segments lying in the resulting recess. Sort of like a trivia pursuit counter.

Failing that you could just go for this :lol:

 

[jasonB]

I've got to make it out of pine to match their other stuff. So there's no chance I could charge that much

Why not, the material cost is not a big percentage of the job particularly if done with veneer, its your time they are paying for unless you want to be on minimum wage. Its going to take you as long to make it out of B&Q pine as it would from an exotic hardwood (possibly more given the state of their timber)

Jason

 

[jlawrence]

As said, material costs are a small amount of the quote. Creating something like this is going to be very time consuming.
You could leave the hole in the middle (as per the one posted earlier) and fit your lazy susan thingy into there. Even out of pine it's going to cost a fair bit.

added:
personally I'd go with vaneering onto an MDF base.

 

[goldeneyedmonkey]

First of all, Dom: that table is ******* amazing! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Does anyone know where I can get veneers online? Or ring up and get them delivered, I don't have the time (or vehicle at the moment)

Brad and Srp: Surely you can't mean that when you need a new piece of equipment, then you just charge the client? I'd never do that, this means that next time you use it the current client would get it for free. Unless we're talking peanuts here, which I bet we're not.

Cheers_Dan

ps, I might go round and look at the aforementioned table that my client has seen, he's a local bloke and he apparently won't mind if I nip round. I think it's been made by a keen hobbyist, so doubt he'll know much about timber movement.

 

[jasonB]

Timberline do Baltic pine and will do mail order
http://www.exotichardwoods.co.uk/Veneer ... eneers.asp

South london hardwoods have carolina pine veneer
http://www.slhardwoods.co.uk/Products.a ... &Display=0

They also do "flexi" veneer which is pre edge jointed veneer on a paper backing, may be an option if you are not used to using veneers
http://www.slhardwoods.co.uk/Products.a ... egory=1169

You will also need to veneer the underside so get sufficent for both using teh best figured bits for teh top


Even if you don't charge the full cost of a piece of equipment to the job its worth say including 50% in this quote and hope to recover the rest by using the item on other jobs. Smaller items like a specific router cutter profile or spindle knives would be charges to teh one job.

If you don't have transport to get veneer have you thought how you ar egoing to deliver the table?

Jason