Making a brass infill plane (Hattori Hanzo, DP)

[Hattori-Hanzo]

In part 6 I start to pein the sole and body of the plane together.

This is where the unknown brass type comes back to bite me. Unlike the Cz108 brass I had used for the first plane, which deformed nicely and spread into the bevelled dovetails this uknown brass sheared, shattered and broke off as I was peining.

Fortunately I had left enough surplus brass to partially overcome this problem but it did leave a few gaps in some of the dovetails which was disappointing.

Learnt my lesson and will be back to using Cz108 from now on!

[youtube]ivUZYFu8Y1Y[/youtube]

 

[IWW]

.......This is where the unknown brass type comes back to bite me. Unlike the Cz108 brass I had used for the first plane, which deformed nicely and spread into the bevelled dovetails this uknown brass sheared, shattered and broke off as I was peining......

Know the feeling well! My very first attempt at making dovetails was fitting the front piece on a shoulder plane I was making. I was even more ignorant of metallurgy then & didn't even know there were different grades - I thought brass was brass. The alloy I used was not good for peening & I ended up with a gappy mess. So I filled them with solder, thus rendering the gaps even more evident!

I can see how you got into trouble Hattori - the continuous-side construction requires the tails to be pushed down between the pins, so they had to be straight-sided, of course. That leaves big gaps to close, alright. I get away with using the less-ductile grades on a 'normal' plane because you can cut the brass tails to a very close fit and they require very little peening to tighten them in their sockets, but with the style you are making here, you have no choice but to end up with big gaps to close whichever way you make the pins & tails. In hindsight, you may have been better off cutting the steel to let the tails though, then filling the gaps with the more ductile steel.

We learn something on every job! It's good to bring these things to everyone's attention - it should help to make the path smoother for others...
Cheers,
Ian

 

[Hattori-Hanzo]

Thanks for the comment Ian. I too was totally ignorant to the different grades of brass and it was only by sheer luck that I bought Cz108 for my first plane.

It's good to bring these things to everyone's attention - it should help to make the path smoother for others...

Couldn't agree more. In my research similar threads where the inspiration for me to give it a go, I hope this thread is the same for someone else.

Part 7 has gone up.

I start making the wooden infills and wedge in this part.

[youtube]cHspVfFK6kE[/youtube]

I've also made a start on the box for the plane.
I wanted to go more traditional with this one so it's going to be a simple dovetailed box with a lift off lid.

Fitting the first dovetails.

 

[Hattori-Hanzo]

Another update for any one still following.

Part 8 is up. In this part I start to make the blade, cutting it from a blank of O1 tool steel, shaping and finally heat treating it.

[youtube]6cPGE4O0WlE[/youtube]

I'm coming to the end of the build and video footage now, Just a couple more parts to go.

 

[Hattori-Hanzo]

With this plane coming to an end and the fact I enjoyed making it so much I've started on another Mitre plane.
Very similar to the current one only almost half it's size.

Once bent the body will be about 4" long

I wanted to challenge myself and Go for as tight a mouth opening as I can possibly achieve. To give it some perspective that's a 0.7mm pencil lead.

No doubt I will have to enlarge this latter down the line but I wanted to start small and make the necessary adjustment once the plane is almost complete.

While it was the same grade brass (Cz108) as my first plane it seems to be peining a lot nicer, it is 1mm thinner though.
I also found this odd piece of stainless steel from a previous job that's acting as an anvil. It's working out so much better than hammering on top of the engineering vice and the proper anvil who's top is in need of some well over due TLC.

Lastly a sneaky shot of the current plane. Think I have one more video to make and that will complete the series.

I've just uploaded video 9 as well.

[youtube]Pav4pSto6Rw[/youtube]

Dan.

 

[Hattori-Hanzo]

I've had some spare time to my self today so finally managed to finish the last video in the series.

It's a long one to finish so I'll start with the pictures.

I made the box from Iroko and finished it with a dark mahogany stain. I lined the box with Tulip wood.

I added a faux suede liner to the box to hold the plane in position.

The dark Wenge contrasts the brass nicely I think.

Thankfully my makers mark came out well, I was a little concerned it being a lot smaller this time.

I was pleased with the peining of the sole dovetails, there where a couple of imperfections but on the whole it went well.

I also added my initials to the underside of the front infill, Makes it hard to remove that way.

And the final video is here.

[youtube]pQ98xiif5w4[/youtube]


Cheers.

 

[AndyT]

Magnificent!
You are clearly paying close attention to all the tiny details and striving for perfection.

I can see that you have studied Bill Carter's work and mentioned him a few times, but I wonder if you have met him in person?
He's really open and approachable and loves to see other makers learning from the information he readily shares.

PS - Box and photos are none too shabby!

 

[MikeG.]

I don't want to be too picky because this is quality work and something I have never even thought of attempting, but those unfilled Cupid's arrow dovetails just look odd to me. If you don't have a way of filling them, have you thought about just having plain orthodox (but properly filled) dovetails?

 

[Hattori-Hanzo]

Thanks Andy.
Funnily enough Bill's videos where some of the first I found when researching how to make metal planes and it was his planes and techniques that inspired me to have a go at making mine.

I've not met him in person but when I was making my first plane I e-mailed him for some advice and was honoured to receive several e-mails back with all my questions answered. He even made a recent video answering one of my questions which was brilliant of him.

I'm pleased to say we have carried on contact and he's informed me that he frequents the David Stanley tool Auctions and he would be happy to meet me there, unfortunately it's a long distance from me but I certainly would like to meet him one day and see his planes in person.

Like you say his willingness to share his skills and knowledge is amazing.

Thanks for the comment Mike.
It was Bill's planes again where I first saw the "open" cupid bow dovetails and I really liked them.
He has even made planes with the detail going around the entire top edge of the plane.

I can appreciate they may not be to every ones taste and agree that they would look stunning filled but I'm not sure it's easily achievable with brass, I've not seen it yet.

I have seen them filled on a plane that used bronze sides.

I think the difficulty with brass is as its soft the steel would deform the shape of the bow when peining and you'd be left with a horrible mess.
Bronze being a lot tougher would hold up to the peining process better. I'd like to try it in bronze to see for myself but it's a lot more expensive than brass and would be a dreadful waste if it all went wrong.

I may pluck up the courage to try them in brass at some point but like I say I'm happy to see them left open as well.

Cheers.

 

[AndyT]

Thanks, that all makes perfect sense. If you can ever find a chance to go to one of the Stanley sales, that would be the perfect way to meet Bill - he's been going to them all, since they started and is a well-known part of the scene. His table always has a selection of interesting planes and is a natural place to gather for collectors, enthusiasts, makers and people who just like a natter and a piece of Sarah's home made cake.

 

[IWW]

Yes, I first saw the 'open' dovetails on Bill's work, too, but am in the "don't like" camp. They look a bit too contrived and precious to my eye, but beauty is in the eye of beholders, and we are all different (thank goodness), so all power to you for the courage to follow your own tastes and extra merit points for executing them so well!

Knowing how difficult it is to peen the more brittle brasses, I'm most impressed by how tight you got those D/Ts - you had a good bit of metal to move, so I imagine you had at least a few moments of panic?! And I have to say, you are coming along at an exponential rate with your plane making. When you said you'd had no metal-working experience before starting the panel plane I found it hard to believe, but your rapid development shows us you are simply a 'natural'.

As to "filling" the bows, I think it would be pretty difficult too, but you might get away with it better than you think. I'm always surprised at how neat & straight the brass/steel edges are when I file off the beaten-down steel pins. My peening is a lot neater & more efficient now, but back when I did my first couple, they looked like a right mess by the time I'd finished hammering away & I thought I'd have wavy edges on my tails, but they all filed-off to leave pretty straight lines. I'd be inclined to make a practice bow with some scrap steel & brass & beat it up just to see how much distortion you do get. Now that you're a journeyman peener, I'd reckon you can move the steel with a fair degree of precision, so that you cause minimum distortion of the brass. You'd probably have to allow another mm protrusion of the steel to make sure you've got enough to push up into the centre point of the bow. A lot more peening, and a lot more filing to clean up - don't think my shoulders would like it!
Cheers,
Ian

 

[Hattori-Hanzo]

Thanks for the reply Ian much appreciated.

While I'm really happy with how this plane performs, it takes a super shaving and is a joy to use on a shooting board I am disappointed that the dovetails didn't fill fully.

I think I over did the angle on the double dovetail and as you say had a lot of material to try and push over.

You can see from this photo the gap at the side of the steel pins.

In one of Bill's videos he explains that on early mitre planes the dovetail angle would be minimal and on some it would almost be vertical.
I've tried to accentuate the dovetail by using a steeper angle but this was probably my downfall.

My peining also leave a lot to be desired, the brass I used on this plane didn't help and the thicker 6mm sole was difficult to manipulate.
It's amazing the difference 1mm makes to peining.

Like you say when you stand back and look at the plane body after peining its a worrying mess, at least mine was

but when all is done and you start to file away the surplus amazingly it all starts to come together.

I'd definitely like to try and fill the bow and the extra peining practise would be welcome but I need to finishes these other projects first too

Cheers.

 

[IWW]

Just looking at the pictures, the gaps don't look too horrendous, Hattori, but they are big by the standards of a separate-sided plane where you can cut the dovetails so they are a tight fit. You had to end up with a wide gap at the tops of the tails because the only way to assemble was to push the sides straight down. I can't see any other way to do it, and presume that's how all continuous-side mitres were done. I've often thought of making a mitre plane for the fun of it, and have always wondered how I'd handle a continuous side. How did you mark out the pins on the sole, for e.g.? It's obviously not possible to scribe them directly off the sides. The only way I have thought of is to make a long cardboard template that I can use to lay out both pins & tails by wrapping it around the sides, then opening it out o lay out the pins on the sole.

I had some big gaps to deal with on the panel-plane I made from the kit. It came with sides & soles pre-cut, as I mentioned earlier, but the cutting was very rough:

The person what done the cutting also thought back-to-front from the typical way of cutting the pins & tails, the "tails' were cut on the sole:

I would have cut the existing mess off completely & started over with fresh tails & pins, if there had been enough spare metal, but there wasn't, so I battled on. It was made all the more difficult because there were no scribe-lines to work to, it was all guess, file, & try 'til they fit. The amount allowed for peening was also very skimpy, so I had some anxious moments closing some of the larger gaps. Like your plane, it all turned out better than I expected, given the battle I'd had, but certainly not perfect. I am still chasing the perfect job and I'm up to plane #15. I've come close, but there have always been one or two little visible lines or pin holes that didn't fill properly. I hope to complete my apprenticeship one day!

...... In one of Bill's videos he explains that on early mitre planes the dovetail angle would be minimal and on some it would almost be vertical.
I've tried to accentuate the dovetail by using a steeper angle but this was probably my downfall.....

......It's amazing the difference 1mm makes to peining........

Yes, you sure don't need much of an angle for the dovetails to hold together very securely. As I said earlier, the angle is more for visual than structural effect. For an all-steel plane, I'd make the angle very shallow, and file a 'notch' in the corners of the tails, like this:

On one small plane I was making, I forgot to file a chamfer on the brass tails on one side. I'd started peening when I remembered. #-o I had hardly begun to fill any of the gaps, so I thought I'd wriggle them apart. But no way were they going to separate without risking severe distortion, so I just hammered them up as they were. After I'd finished & filed off the waste, I was amazed to find I could not easily pick the side that I'd not chamfered from the side I did! Both have quite distinct angles when viewed from the sole side.

As long as all the gaps are filled, it doesn't matter how wonky the notches are for an all-steel body. I notched the pins on this plane far more than necessary (a conclusion I quickly came to when hammering them up!) but you can't see any of the notches, just a couple of faint lines where the shoulders of a couple of tail sockets weren't as tight as they should have been.

I think there's an ideal amount of extra metal one should allow for peening. To little is obviously disastrous, but you can also have too much. You've allowed what looks like close to 3mm on your mitre plane, whereas I rarely allow more than 1.5 mm (although with big gaps to fill like on those straight dovetails, I might have added another .5 or so). If there's too much extra metal (& this applies to rivets as well), it's hard to get the metal to come over evenly & fill the whole gap from the bottom up. It's too easy to pound it over so the gap looks closed, but after filing off, you discover nasty voids. Took me a few planes to figure this out & learn to judge the right amount. It's as much art as science because it depends on the actual metals you're working with as well as complications like curving sides when a pin falls on a bend......

But it's all god fun. I think you are learning much faster than I did - I'd give you top marks for all your efforts so far (at least what you've shown us - surely you've made a few good blunders along the way?! )

Cheers,
Ian

 

[Hattori-Hanzo]

Cheers Ian.

Just to clarify the gaps at the top of the dovetails are only filed 1 -1.5 mm deep to create the "double dovetail" effect.
Beyond that the dovetail is straight. Difficult for me to explain but these pictures show what I mean.

You can see that if I had not filed this material away the dovetail would be vertical.

When peining, this gap gets filled to create the look. This is what I was referring to when I said I had over done the angle.

Here is a picture before I filed it away.

You can of course keep them vertical but adding the double dovetail adds to the mystery of how the joint comes together.
This is where Bill says on early mitre planes only a very shallow angle was added.

EDIT....
Just reading your post again and I think this process is what your referring to as a "notch" on one of your planes?

For marking the pins I placed the completed body of the plane on top of the sole and carefully scribed around each pin.

Because the bottom of the pin is a straight cut this is the easiest way to transfer them over.

I think there's an ideal amount of extra metal one should allow for peening. To little is obviously disastrous, but you can also have too much

If there's too much extra metal (& this applies to rivets as well), it's hard to get the metal to come over evenly & fill the whole gap from the bottom up. It's too easy to pound it over so the gap looks closed, but after filing off, you discover nasty voids

I think you're absolutely right and this is exactly the problem I had.
I think I left too much metal to peen, it looked as though the gaps where filled but in fact the metal had rolled over and left a void right on the join line.

Definitely going to reduce the amount of metal for peining next time. Like you say 1.5mm should be about right.

As for blunders, there has been many! but like you say its how you get over them that really gets you thinking.
"The man who made no mistakes made nothing at all"

 

[Bm101]

Huge steps up the learning curve just by reading the interaction between you both. Many thanks to the pair of you for sharing so much hard won knowledge.
Great stuff.
=D>
Chris

 

[IWW]

...... EDIT....
Just reading your post again and I think this process is what your referring to as a "notch" on one of your planes? ...........

Not exactly, Hattori, what I was referring to is a distinct notch, with very little, if any bevel (the distortion caused by peening will give the impression of a bevel). You probably need to register to see pictures, but this old thread on the 'Ubeaut' forum had an excellent article on making a bench rebate plane: https://www.woodworkforums.com/f44/wip- ... rass-80588?

Unfortunately, it lost most of the pictures due to a glitch during a programme upgrade, but post #13, which is the relevant one, still has its pictures. The author of the thread is a hugely knowledgeable chap when it comes to metalwork & tool history in general - if you haven't seen his website it's well worth a look when you have a bit of time: http://www.petermcbride.com/metal_plane_making/

Thanks for the explanation of how you marked out the sole - simple & effective!
As you say, adding the bevel from below adds to the mystery when you have contrasting metals to display the joints.

And your end quote is something I say to beginners very often. I once asked an old friend, who was way ahead of me in all sorts of manual arts, and a very skilled turner, "When do you stop making mistakes?" He replied "Dunno - I still make plenty". Learning is lifelong, as they say.... :wink:

Chris - I'm learning from the exchange too! There's always some little angle or idea one can glean by reading other people's build posts. Like a way to mark out the dovetails on the sole of a mitre plane.....
Cheers,
Ian

 

[Tealeaf]

Absolutely stunning work there. So impressed, it was a great way to spend 5 minutes reading the post while drinking some tea..... and that 5 minutes turned into a hour as the thread completely absorbed me!

Great skill, thank you for sharing.

 

[Hattori-Hanzo]

Thanks for the messages guys, really glad you're finding the thread interesting.

Thanks Ian for the link on the relief cuts in the dovetail, it's all starting to make sense now.....at least I think so

and thank you for linking to Peters site, that's my evening sorted.
I have seen his planes come up on image searches but could never put a name to them, now the mystery is solved.

Cheers.

 

[Hattori-Hanzo]

Getting towards the end of my next plane.

Another mitre plane which is a little smaller than the last and I've had a go at making a brass lever cap as well.
Not the easiest thing to make, lots of hand work involved but the hardest part was drilling the centre hole square through it.
Our pillar drill is old and seen some abuse over the years, it has a fair amount of run out, couple that with drill bits that always want to wander it's not the ideal set up.

I made a wooden template to start before cutting the brass.

Lots of hand filing to define the shape.

Then lots of sanding to clean it up.

I then polished it to a mirror finish.

I also made the thumb screw but I might make another one as I think it wants to be a little larger. Quite pleased with how this turned out though, it was my first attempt at shaping the head of the thumb screw. I did it on the lathe by eye with a half round cutter I ground from an old bit of blank steel.

Here's a size comparison to the last plane.

First dry assembly of the plane. I managed to get hold of a small piece of box wood for the infill.
My first time using it, nice to work but hard as old boots. Has a lovely creamy colour when first sanded but I'm guessing this will darken quite a lot.
Just need to work on the blade now.

I'm really pleased with the peining on this plane, it's the best I've achieved so far.
The thinner brass and O1 tool steel where a lot nicer to work.
As mentioned previously I halved the amount of surplus material for peining and it definitely made a big improvement.

I'm going for a high polish on this plane so lastly I spent a lot time sanding and polishing the body.

I'm going for a 6mm thick blade on this plane which is going to be a lot of work, cutting, shaping and then hardening the blade is going to be a challenge.

I don't think our wood burner is going to work so well on 6mm so next I'm going to make a simple forge and give that a try.

Still a fair bit of work to do yet.

Also a little video of the lever cap.

[youtube]gP3fRIfEO-E[/youtube]

Cheers.

 

[IWW]

Hattori, you're cranking these things out so fast I can't keep up!

It seems strange to me now, but the lever cap was my biggest worry when I was thinking about making my first infill, I was only half as worried about peening the pins & tails. I was stuck on the idea that all the LCs I knew about were cast, it didn't occur to me that one could just take a lump of brass & sculpt a LC from it. But one day I wanted a LC for a small plane I was making & decided to give it a go - turned out to be not only far easier than I'd expected, it gave me more satisfaction sculpting that LC than making the rest of the plane. My first attempt was far less elegant than the one you just made, but once I grasped the idea, it didn't take long to make them look a bit more professional.

You need to save some pennies for a decent drill & machine-vise, I think. :wink: Wandering drill bits are also caused by asymmetrically- sharpened bits. Small diameter bits don't have to be off by much to send them a-wandering in a long-ish hole. I have a drill sharpener that does a fair job on bits from about 3 to 8mm, but for critical operations I keep a set of new ones in the most regularly-used sizes.

But why not avoid the problem? I seem to be the only one using screws as axles of my LCs, & wondering if there's some good reason why I shouldn't. I did this on my first infill because I had only a vague idea of how I might rivet the LC into the plane without pinching the sides down & making it too stiff to function properly. So I came up with the idea of using a couple of "cheese-head" screws. It looks quite neat & has worked with no apparent problems to date. One advantage is you only need to drill about a 15mm hole from each side (+/- depending on size of LC & plane), which makes it easier to get the holes where they should be, and I've been thankful a number of times when I had to pull the LC out for one reason or another. With the screw heads flushed to the sides, it looks neat enough, I think:

Your peening looks flawless on this plane, and I see you are starting to play with some more decoration. Are we seeing the next Karl Holtey emerging here??
Cheers,
Ian