LV steel lapping plate too hard?

[yetloh]

... On the other hand, you could just use a filthy old dished oil stone like Jacob!

Jim

You may well larf - but it works! And fast and cheap. It's not that filthy. Grubby yes, but not filthy.

A joke, but I do have the greatest respect for the very fine work that you do. However there is a serious point here. In my opinion it is unquestionably the case that, historically, master crafstmen produced wonderful work often with what would today be regarded as inferior tools and certainly, edges which are inferior to those possible today both in terms of longevity and ultimate sharpness. That is of course just as capable of being true now as it was 100 or 200 years ago. Having used both oil and the best modern water stones I am of the firm opinion that the latter are capable of producing a superior edge.

It is often said that bad workmen blame their tools but amateur woodworkers like me need all the help we can get and there is no doubt in my mind that top quality tools make it easier for the amateur to get good results. But let us not pretend that there is not also an element of tech addiction at work here and of course, there is real pleasure to be obtained from owning and using top qulaity tools, even if some of the refinements are not strictly necessary. If you can afford it and it gives you pleasure and helps make satisfying results easier to obtain, then why not?

Jim

 

[jimi43]

I think the point has to be made Jim that it is not the medium of lubrication, rather the type and quality of the stone that does a specific job. That the stone in question works better with one type of lubricant than another is a function of the stone in many cases.

For instance...a hard resilient stone which does not shed particles relies on the movement of the steel across it to wear down the metal. I prefer a coarse hard natural stone with oil for hand grinding primary bevels and reshaping.

For honing however, I change between Scary sharp, diamond hones and my coticule...the latter as you know prefers water to make a slurry which has released particles of garnet carried in it as the fine abrasive for polishing.

So there is really no "correct" stone..rather stones which are more suited to one job than another.

Modern steels tend towards needing special hones such as ceramic to even touch them...and I think this is why some are disappointed with the results they get from previously excellent and successful methods.

My latest success has been using a Tormek stone to create a shallow concave bevel and then keeping both sides of the bevel level with a diamond hone...creating a polished edge. These two edges are automatically aligned and eventually meet in the middle to form one primary bevel. This of course only works with smoother, shoulder and other straight edged irons configurations and not rounded edges.

I must have picked this up reading somewhere but it does not require any jig or trained arms as each side of the bevel supports the edge while the honing is done. Has anyone else tried this?

Jim

 

[No skills]

Jim

I have read this but not tried (or maybe seen on youtube), considering some of the complex routines people are using it seems nice and quick. Tell me you not adding a secondary bevel afterwards

 

[jimi43]

................Tell me you not adding a secondary bevel afterwards

No mate...no secondary bevel seems necessary. I guess the only drawback is if you want to use a secondary bevel to adjust for more difficult woods...a steeper angle...but I don't see why you can't then hone a steeper secondary. For everyday use it simply isn't necessary and a lot of people who are constantly swapping tend to have a second prepped iron anyay.

Jim

 

[Aled Dafis]

.

My latest success has been using a Tormek stone to create a shallow concave bevel and then keeping both sides of the bevel level with a diamond hone...creating a polished edge. These two edges are automatically aligned and eventually meet in the middle to form one primary bevel. This of course only works with smoother, shoulder and other straight edged irons configurations and not rounded edges.

I must have picked this up reading somewhere but it does not require any jig or trained arms as each side of the bevel supports the edge while the honing is done. Has anyone else tried this?

Jim

I use a similar method, but only hone the front edge of the iron, it's the quickest and easiest method I've come across by a long way. I'd post a link to my youtube vid, but I'm on the ipad at the moment and not quite sure how I'd go about it.

Cheers
Aled

Edit: just worked it out, here you go

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFRJIAOGSJI

 

[David C]

Jim,

I think the method you describe is the one used by James Krenov, see his first book.

The only difference being that he hollow ground on a six inch hand grinder!

It's a very good method, but one ends up working on and polishing, a larger and larger area of bevel with each subsequent sharpening.

best wishes,
David Charlesworth

 

[Jacob]

...arf - but it works! And fast and cheap. It's not that filthy. Grubby yes, but not filthy.

A joke, but I do have the greatest respect for the very fine work that you do. However there is a serious point here. In my opinion it is unquestionably the case that, historically, master crafstmen produced wonderful work often with what would today be regarded as inferior tools and certainly, edges which are inferior to those possible today both in terms of longevity and ultimate sharpness. That is of course just as capable of being true now as it was 100 or 200 years ago. Having used both oil and the best modern water stones I am of the firm opinion that the latter are capable of producing a superior edge. .........

Not a joke - and the work not that fine!
It wasn't just master craftsmen using grubby oil stones - everybody did, including amateurs and schoolkids. Sharpening was never a problem, as it certainly is now. This started changing about 40 years ago when the amateur woodwork trade started picking up.
I don't think you are right about waterstones; natural stones even come in "surgical" grades for those who want ultimate sharpness.
But in any case what we all want is practical working systems - optimum, not ultimate.
I've taken to using the Paul Sellers system - freehand, three diamond plates, rounded bevels. This is very fast and very effective. For a finer finish I go to a fine oil stone and then a strop on leather, if I feel the need. Never go anywhere near a grindstone; the system means you replicate the edge every time you hone and there is no need ever to fuss about with multiple bevels, re-grinding etc.

 

[David C]

The finest waterstones are much finer i.e. smaller grit particles, than any western, natural stone, including surgical grade Arkansas.

This is not thought, it is fact.

D

 

[jimi43]

Aled, David....thanks for confirming that I am not going bonkers (yet!) :mrgreen:

I discovered this by accident when using a diamond hone on a turning skew...not taking any notice when touching up the bevel and realising I was rubbing across both points. I didn't have time to regrind and just went for it on some lignum and was astonished to find the edge was keener than before!

Clearly the bevel was conducive to doing this as it was substantial and the chisel was slightly butch to say the least! :mrgreen: Later on I tried it on a very fine thin chisel and discovered it was far easier to control on such a tiny surface. This weekend I deliberately used this technique on the WARD cutter I had to restore on the gunmetal shoulder I acquired at a bootfair on Sunday and the results were impressive.

Whilst being pleased with the technique...I had a feeling I hadn't discovered something new...so it is probably subliminal and I became convinced I would have seen/read it somewhere...probably your superb video Aled! 8)

...........But in any case what we all want is practical working systems - optimum, not ultimate

No we don't "all" want what you want Jacob...and the sooner you realise that the more harmonious this forum will be. :wink:

I have no doubt that you are happy with whatever process you use and are happy making fine furniture. I like the process of sharpening as a subject...I use the things I learn to make tools and I get pleasure from doing this and, as with religion....I ain't about to allow anyone else to say their way is the "right" way! :mrgreen:

Jim

 

[Jacob]

The finest waterstones are much finer i.e. smaller grit particles, than any western, natural stone, including surgical grade Arkansas.

This is not thought, it is fact.

D

Yebbut so what? Surgeons may need this but woodworkers certainly don't.

.....

...........But in any case what we all want is practical working systems - optimum, not ultimate

No we don't "all" want what you want Jacob...and the sooner you realise that the more harmonious this forum will be. :wink:

I have no doubt that you are happy with whatever process you use and are happy making fine furniture. I like the process of sharpening as a subject...I use the things I learn to make tools and I get pleasure from doing this and, as with religion....I ain't about to allow anyone else to say their way is the "right" way! :mrgreen:

Jim

That's interesting. By "all" I meant those whose priority is woodwork. A clear admission that sharpening has become a separate hobby in it's own right!
No wonder there are crossed lines!
Presumably there is a fuzzy border line between the interests of hobby sharpeners on the one hand, and woodworkers on the other. Many people wouldn't know this. I wasn't sure myself until relatively recently. I think the honing jig puts you firmly into the hobby sharpener camp. If woodwork is your thing, throw it away!

 

[David C]

It's such a pity that so many of your posts have such a rude tone. "Hobby sharpeners" is a good example.

What on earth is your concept of a woodworker? The ones I know hardly ever touch a hand tool, even though they know how to use one if necessary. CNC and large thickness sanders have become common in medium sized workshops.

The majority of members of this forum will probably be amateurs who work wood for a pleasureable hobby at home. They are likely to get a far more satisfactory and repeatable result with a honing guide.

David Charlesworth

 

[Racers]

Leave him David 'es not worth it :wink:

I have pointed this out to him several times (we do woodwork as a hobby) but he still dosn't get it.

Pete

 

[Jacob]

...
What on earth is your concept of a woodworker? The ones I know hardly ever touch a hand tool,

Really? You need to get out a bit more Dave. There are hundreds of small workshops not unlike mine, using a mixture of machines and hand tools as necessary.

....... They are likely to get a far more satisfactory and repeatable result with a honing guide.

David Charlesworth

Some maybe. Some are obviously spending a huge amount of time and money with not a lot to show for it.
All I know is that as soon as I stopped using a honing guide sharpening became a whole lot easier and hand tools became much more viable for many operations.
Easy sharpening means you can do more or spend longer actually using the tools, which in turn are sharper for more of the time.

 

[Paul Chapman]

Blimey, Jacob, do you sit in front of your computer all day waiting to pounce on any hand tool thread :? You ought to do a bit more woodwork.........

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Alf]

I think the method you describe is the one used by James Krenov, see his first book.

The only difference being that he hollow ground on a six inch hand grinder!

It's a very good method, but one ends up working on and polishing, a larger and larger area of bevel with each subsequent sharpening.

More to the point from my perspective, you end up working on and polishing an area of the bevel that's not going to be doing any work anyway. But then I like my secondary bevels and heartily dislike metalworking of any kind, but particularly the unnecessary sort.

 

[deserter]

Sorry was tired last night and jumped in both feet, apologies.

 

[Jacob]

...
What on earth is your concept of a woodworker? The ones I know hardly ever touch a hand tool,

Really? You need to get out a bit more Dave. There are hundreds of small workshops not unlike mine, using a mixture of machines and hand tools as necessary.

....... They are likely to get a far more satisfactory and repeatable result with a honing guide.

David Charlesworth

Some maybe. Some are obviously spending a huge amount of time and money with not a lot to show for it.
All I know is that as soon as I stopped using a honing guide sharpening became a whole lot easier and hand tools became much more viable for many operations.
Easy sharpening means you can do more or spend longer actually using the tools, which in turn are sharper for more of the time.

Jacob, I work for a medium sized company producing "high end furniture" for very wealthy and sometimes influential people, the majority of our work is cut using a rip saw, dimensioned using a p/t the sanded in a belt sander everything else is passed through a moulder. The sheet material normally passes over the CNC whilst any m/t joints are done by their respective machines, finally details are added by a spindle moulder before it hits my bench for veneer and assembly. In my spare time however I work mainly with Handtools the router and bandsaw being my only exception, so do I fit into hobbyist, machinist or what? Because I certainly don't meet your criteria for cabinet maker, which is what my employer calls me, and in fact what I do, get used to it mate the 20th century started it all and now we move forwards.

Very interesting, but you seem to have missed the point. I didn't set any criteria for cabinet maker. In fact you are the first to raise the topic in this thread.

 

[No skills]

................Tell me you not adding a secondary bevel afterwards

No mate...no secondary bevel seems necessary. I guess the only drawback is if you want to use a secondary bevel to adjust for more difficult woods...a steeper angle...but I don't see why you can't then hone a steeper secondary. For everyday use it simply isn't necessary and a lot of people who are constantly swapping tend to have a second prepped iron anyay.

Jim

Good... what I mean (sorry) is I thought it was a great simple solution to a sharp cutting edge so why complicate it. It must of been Aled's video I saw! #-o And really, thinking about it - should you want a steeper angle as you mentioned, its not really an extra step at all, just lifting the chisel on honing. So to re-cap, I'm talking myself round in circles what a wally.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

My latest success has been using a Tormek stone to create a shallow concave bevel and then keeping both sides of the bevel level with a diamond hone...creating a polished edge. These two edges are automatically aligned and eventually meet in the middle to form one primary bevel. This of course only works with smoother, shoulder and other straight edged irons configurations and not rounded edges.

Jim my friend, I hate to break this to you, but many of us have been freehanding blades like this for yonks.

A primary bevel that is hollowed at the desired angle is self-jigging when freehand sharpening. In plane blades this is easy enough to camber. In a chisel the coplanar bevel face makes it more user friendly against a guiding surface, such as when used bevel down.

The only time I do not do this is when using blades for BU planes, since a secondary bevel is required to create the desired cutting angle.

As always ..

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[ali27]

Derek, I know you have used diamond paste on a steel plate
for sharpening, but what about using the plate as a lapping plate
for waterstones?

I was thinking of buying coarse diamond paste(100-200 grit or so) and
smearing some of it on the steel plate, then use something to press it in the
plate. Would that not give me a diamond flattening lapping plate like DMT or
Eze lap? Seems like a very cheap way to get a diamond lapping plate to dress
waterstones. I know there is a risk of the diamonds ending up in the waterstones,
but I am thinking if the diamonds are embedded well with high pressure, they will
probably stay in their places. What do you think?

Ali