low angle for end grain?

[adrian]

People often say that a low cutting angle is best for end grain. I was trying out my new shooting board with a sort-of-new Veritas low angle jack plane fitted with an A2 blade sharpened with a straight edge at around 27 degrees for an effective pitch around 39. The workpiece is American cherry, a fairly soft easily worked wood.

My observation is that it seemed almost from the first cut like the blade edge had gone ragged. I was getting a decent looking shaving, but the cut surface on the wood had a lot of lines on it running in the cut direction, suggesting that the blade had formed a toothed edge rather than a smooth one.

I'm wondering what to make of this, since the behavior seems worse than with any other plane I've tried...but I thought low effective pitch was supposed to be good for end grain. After I was done I measured one shaving and found it to be 3 thou thick. Too thick?

Could the problem be the A2 steel? I've recently noticed people saying that A2 needs to be sharpened at 30 degrees or more. And in another thread somebody linked to a review of the new LV block plane and complained about the A2.

What should I do to get the best end grain shaving performance?

 

[Calpol]

I had a read of the Veritas honing guide instructions t'other day and it suggests a back bevel to give some extra rigidity to the blade. I tried it and seems to work very well... Super quick to resharpen as well.

 

[Anonymous]

Adrian

After using my LN #9 for 6 months on the shooting board, I ground it to a higher angle (38 on the blade) and get much better results in hard wood. I used to think a low anlge was better on end grain, but that myth has since been dispelled by my own experiences.

 

[woodbloke]

People often say that a low cutting angle is best for end grain. I was trying out my new shooting board with a sort-of-new Veritas low angle jack plane fitted with an A2 blade sharpened with a straight edge at around 27 degrees for an effective pitch around 39

The honed angle on the blade is too shallow for A2 and the effect you're seeing is the edge disintegrating. I have a honed edge at 36deg and then a micro-bevel at 38deg giving an EP of 50deg, this on the LA jack which is also used for bench work. This is maybe too high for a dedicated shooter such as the LN No9 and on that the EP is a bit lower at 48deg

Tony - if you've ground the blade on the LN No9 at 38deg, you've got an EP there of 58deg, assuming no further honing on the blade? - Rob

 

[bugbear]

My observation is that it seemed almost from the first cut like the blade edge had gone ragged. I was getting a decent looking shaving, but the cut surface on the wood had a lot of lines on it running in the cut direction, suggesting that the blade had formed a toothed edge rather than a smooth one.

I suppose the key question here is - does a low angle edge not cut well, OR does a low angle edge degrade too quickly to be useable?

A real, practical question.

And a question which I think is best answered by looking at the edge with a loupe or cheap microscope, as discussed a while back in the "Sharpening. A microscopic contribution" thread.

BugBear

 

[Mr Ed]

I found on the oak tables that I posted in projects recently that my LN block plane (which I usually use on end grain) with a 42 degree EP gave a terrible finish. Conversely my LA Jack with 57 degrees EP gave a better finish.

I always thought low angles were best for end grain but I have started wondering recently.

Cheers, Ed

 

[Paul Chapman]

In this interview with Ron Hock, he provides an explanation why A2 steel needs a steeper angle than 01 steel to prevent the edge breaking up http://cherrycreekwoodworks.blogspot.co ... -hock.html

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[adrian]

I suppose the key question here is - does a low angle edge not cut well, OR does a low angle edge degrade too quickly to be useable?

This does seem like the key question.

I think it's interesting that almost everyone who has replied so far has said they use a higher effective pitch. But we don't know why they find the low angle edge to give an inferior result. (Is it because everyone is using A2 and it can't handle the small angle?)

The use of the low angle for end grain doesn't seem to be just a vaguely asserted myth. People like Charlesworth recommend it, for example. That makes me wonder if there's something about my setup that's preventing the blade from working well. (I don't think Charlesworth recommends a back bevel to strengthen the edge.)

I thought about the use of high angles with end grain and realized that I have quite often used a card scraper on end grain and gotten a nice result. (But I also recall that there seems to be a "right" direction where the cabinet scraper produces a smoother more polished finish and other "wrong" directions where the finish is not so good. I have no idea on end grain what defines this direction.)

And a question which I think is best answered by looking at the edge with a loupe or cheap microscope, as discussed a while back in the "Sharpening. A microscopic contribution" thread.

BugBear

I took a look at that thread and there didn't seem to be much except the link to pics from the QX3 that somebody posted. I routinely inspect my edges with a 10X loupe, but I've never tried a 100X microscope.

How do you think the question would be answered using magnification? I stroked my fingernail along the edge after the end grain planing session was finished and it did feel rough in the center where it would have been taking shavings, so I do believe that some sort of edge failure has occurred.

 

[Paul Chapman]

I think it's interesting that almost everyone who has replied so far has said they use a higher effective pitch. But we don't know why they find the low angle edge to give an inferior result.

Adrian,

It's explained in that interview I posted a link to:

Let's talk steel. It is well known that you're a proponent of high carbon steel over A2, even though you offer both. For those that don't fully understand the difference, would you elaborate on it, and tell us why you believe O-1 to be superior to A2?


Which of your children do you love more? I don’t think O1 is superior to A2 but there are differences to consider. A2 will hold an edge longer but it’s harder to sharpen and it costs more. O1 sharpens more easily and it can get sharper than A2. A2 contains 5% chromium, which has a tendency to form large chromium carbide particles during heat treatment. Those carbides contribute to edge retention but they also can inhibit honing an edge to zero-radius. They are large lumps in the steel matrix that have a tendency to pop out of the thin edge. This is why A2 performs best with a steeper bevel angle (like 30* to 35*). With a shallower bevel, the edge tends to be more fragile. O1 has only 0.5% chromium and therefore doesn’t have the same carbide problem. Thinner, sharper edges are possible but they don’t enjoy the edge retention benefits that A2 offers. So I give this advice: If edge life is paramount, as when dimensioning with a plane or planing abrasive woods, choose the A2. But for ultimate sharpness for, say, finish smoothing, O1 is a better choice.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[adrian]

Did all the people who said they got better results with higher angles tell us that they were using A2?

 

[Paul Chapman]

Did all the people who said they got better results with higher angles tell us that they were using A2?

All LN and most Veritas blades are A2. Clifton and some Hock blades are high carbon steel so you can use lower angles with them.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Karl]

I use a Philly mitre plane, which has a bevel down blade bedded at 38 degrees. Leaves a great surface on the timber. I believe the blade is O1. 6mm thick.

Cheers

Karl

 

[adrian]

That's interesting. I'd never seen a bevel down low angle plane before. What angle do you hone the blade at?

 

[Handworkfan]

I thought about the use of high angles with end grain and realized that I have quite often used a card scraper on end grain and gotten a nice result. (But I also recall that there seems to be a "right" direction where the cabinet scraper produces a smoother more polished finish and other "wrong" directions where the finish is not so good. I have no idea on end grain what defines this direction.)

The lines of long grain rarely if ever run perfectly parallel to the surface, and will therefore meet the right-angle end at an angle. This angle needs to be sloping away from the approaching cutter, just as with long-grain. To illustrate the point, try cutting an edge at an angle and then planing it each way and you'll find the principle exaggerated.

 

[Philly]

That's interesting. I'd never seen a bevel down low angle plane before. What angle do you hone the blade at?

Adrian
Ground at 25 degrees, and honed at up to 30 degrees.
Hope this helps
Philly

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

I shoot a lot of very hard endgrain. My A2 LV BU Jack blade is hollow ground and honed at 25 degrees. This holds an edge very well - no chipping or folding.

When I received, and later reviewed, the LV Premium block planes, with new A2 blades, they were also hollow ground and honed at 25 degrees. I found a little chipping present, until I reground and rehoned. Since then no more chipping.

I think that 30 degree on A2 may well be better, but I have not had a problem at 25 degrees.

Today I was shooting with a Marcou BU smoother with a 60 degree cutting angle (because it was handy). It did an excellent job.

There is no doubt in my mind that the lower setting on a shooting plane is going to make the job of planing endgrain easier. Therefore 25 degrees is preferred to 30 degrees. Still, if you are concerned, use 30 degrees. The extra degree of effort is not that significant and the end result will still be good.

Last word: if you are a freehander and/or strop between honings, then avoid backbevels like the plague. They make stropping impossible.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[adrian]

I shoot a lot of very hard endgrain. My A2 LV BU Jack blade is hollow ground and honed at 25 degrees. This holds an edge very well - no chipping or folding.

When I received, and later reviewed, the LV Premium block planes, with new A2 blades, they were also hollow ground and honed at 25 degrees. I found a little chipping present, until I reground and rehoned. Since then no more chipping.

Why would you need to regrind? I am using a blade that has been honed but not yet ground back.

I think that 30 degree on A2 may well be better, but I have not had a problem at 25 degrees.

Today I was shooting with a Marcou BU smoother with a 60 degree cutting angle (because it was handy). It did an excellent job.

There is no doubt in my mind that the lower setting on a shooting plane is going to make the job of planing endgrain easier. Therefore 25 degrees is preferred to 30 degrees. Still, if you are concerned, use 30 degrees. The extra degree of effort is not that significant and the end result will still be good.

Do you find that 60 degrees is just as good as the 42 degrees provided by a 30 degree bevel in a bevel up plane?

When you say "if you are concerned" use 30 degrees...well, let's just say that the finish I'm getting with 27 degrees leaves something to be desired, so I need to change
something about what I'm doing. Here's a picture of the end grain after shooting it with my setup. (And I started with a freshly sharpened blade.)

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Why would you need to regrind? I am using a blade that has been honed but not yet ground back.

Hi Adrian

I grind when there are chips in the edge, or when the microbevel (on the hollow) is no longer micro and honing is more work than desired (usually it takes me aboout 30 seconds to restore an edge (I work freehand). Keep in mind, too, that I have used this blade for about 3 years.

Jarrah (and other Aussie timbers) is very abrasive as it contains a higher level of silica than many others.

Do you find that 60 degrees is just as good as the 42 degrees provided by a 30 degree bevel in a bevel up plane?

I did not say directly but thought it evident that a lower cutting angle both makes planing easier and leaves a smoother edge.

Here's a picture of the end grain after shooting it with my setup.

It is evident from your picture that you are using incorrect technique. You need to chamfer the trailing edge before shooting, and work to this. Here are a couple of pictures:

These are taken from an article on my website:

"..butt the end of the board against the fence and chamfer the end with the plane on the shooting board. This assures a square chamfer."

"..The third step is to turn the board around, rest the reference side against the fence, and plane to the end of the chamfer.

The chamfer may also be made using a chisel."

The article is: "Setting Up and Using a Shooting Board": http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/Setting Up and Using a Shooting Board4.html

There are a couple of others as well on shooting board design.

My favourite is "Shooting for Perfection": http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/ShootingforPerfection.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[adrian]

Why would you need to regrind? I am using a blade that has been honed but not yet ground back.

I grind when there are chips in the edge, or when the microbevel (on the hollow) is no longer micro and honing is more work than desired (usually it takes me aboout 30 seconds to restore an edge (I work freehand). Keep in mind, too, that I have used this blade for about 3 years.

So in my case, with microchipping, you would regrind? But why would regrinding stop the blade from chipping the next time?

How thick should end grain shavings be?

It is evident from your picture that you are using incorrect technique. You need to chamfer the trailing edge before shooting, and work to this. Here are a couple of pictures:

Thanks for the pictures and references to the articles.

If you must chamfer the back then that means you can't decide to just take a couple shavings off if something is just a hair too long. Or you you try to make a tiny chamfer?

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

If you must chamfer the back then that means you can't decide to just take a couple shavings off if something is just a hair too long. Or you you try to make a tiny chamfer?

You must campher the edge - every time - no matter the depth to be planed, otherwise you will create break out.

Regards from Perth

Derek