Low angle, 5 or 5 ½ jack plane for a beginner?

[Phil Pascoe]

I think you missed my point, Pete. If the top of the bench sloped an eighth it would have exactly the same effect as the sticks being an eighth different. None.

 

[MikeG.]

Why?

Pete

Because if the sticks are different heights and you don't line up exactly parallel then you'll get a "false positive" reading for twist. That doesn't happen (in theory) if they're the same height.

No, Pete, that will happen anyway if the sticks aren't parallel.

This really is overthinking a very simple sighting aid. The only two things you need to make winding sticks work are that they are straight (one of them...the near one....... also needs to be parallel top-and-bottom. The far one doesn't even need to be that) and that they are both laid out at right angles to the board. Anything more than that is a bonus, and an unnecessary complication for a beginner.

 

[MikeG.]

I think you missed my point, Pete. If the top of the bench sloped an eighth it would have exactly the same effect as the sticks being an eighth different. None.

Only if you were planing a board so soggy and floppy that it followed the contour of your bench. I tend to avoid wood like that.

 

[Jacob]

You are only checking the surface that the stick are on nothing else, so the position of your bench or the underside of the wood doesn’t matter.

Pete

Yep.

 

[Jacob]

Why?

Pete

Because if the sticks are different heights and you don't line up exactly parallel then you'll get a "false positive" reading for twist. That doesn't happen (in theory) if they're the same height.

No, Pete, that will happen anyway if the sticks aren't parallel.

Not if they are parallel and same height

This really is overthinking a very simple sighting aid. The only two things you need to make winding sticks work are that they are straight (one of them...the near one....... also needs to be parallel top-and-bottom. The far one doesn't even need to be that) and that they are both laid out at right angles to the board. Anything more than that is a bonus, and an unnecessary complication for a beginner.

Nope.
They have to be identical, which isn't difficult even for a beginner.
They don't even have to be at right angles to the board, though that's how you'd do it (approximately) without giving it a thought.
As I said earlier - it's slightly odd in this world of mega precision and engineering techniques imported into woodwork, 'reference surfaces' and other bollo.sk,
that this simple, cheap, and very accurate technique causes so much confusion.

I guess it's because nobody can sell any gadgets on the back of it, though no doubt winding sticks are on sale somewhere, probably made of ebony, with brass knobs on.

PS oh yes here they are but only a wealthy beginner (or idiot) would buy these!

 

[MikeG.]

.........Nope.
They have to be identical, which isn't difficult even for a beginner.

No, they absolutely do not. Unless of course perspective doesn't exist in your workshop. I accept that making them identical is easy, but there is no cost whatever in their efficacy if they aren't.

They don't even have to be at right angles to the board, though that's how you'd do it (approximately) without giving it a thought.........

Again, there it is again: that perspective-free anomaly in your workshop.

 

[Jacob]

.........Nope.
They have to be identical, which isn't difficult even for a beginner.

No, they absolutely do not. Unless of course perspective doesn't exist in your workshop. I accept that making them identical is easy, but there is no cost whatever in their efficacy if they aren't.

They don't even have to be at right angles to the board, though that's how you'd do it (approximately) without giving it a thought.........

Again, there it is again: that perspective-free anomaly in your workshop.

Perspective doesn't come into it.
Have a go with some bits of wood Mike.

I could do some photos but people obviously need to work it out for themselves!

 

[patrickjchase]

Perspective doesn't come into it.
Have a go with some bits of wood Mike.

I could do some photos but people obviously need to work it out for themselves!

Obviously people are simply confusing "perspective" and "parallax"

Here's a thought experiment for everybody who thinks that different-height winding sticks are OK: Consider a perfectly flat surface, on which rest two different height winding sticks. Imagine that they are so far out of parallel that they touch. Is there any angle or "perspective" from which you can view them such that you could correctly determine that the surface is flat? (hint: No).

 

[DBT85]

 

[MikeG.]

Jacob, I am well aware of the difference between perspective and parallax. I chose the former word carefully. You don't have to tell me to go and "have a go with some bits of wood", because I have probably been using winding sticks as long and as often as you have, and I know full well how they work. I don't need to "work it out for myself" (thanks very much for the suggestion), because I've been working it out for myself for 35 years or more. Remember, I made a living making high-end one off furniture, and did all my stock preparation my hand. I might just have a clue about winding sticks.

I gave a big clue when I said previously that only one of the sticks, the nearest one, need to have a top edge parallel to the bottom edge. The other one can have a waney edge, a fan-tail carving or be any shape you like to its top. It could be a long wedge. I don't use the top edge of the far stick to sight. I use the bottom edge. I look at the gap between the top of the near one and the under-edge of the far one, as this is far easier to see clearly than trying to line up two top edges. It's a sliver of light, after all...........the same thing you look at when placing the edge of a plane across a board to check flatness. Obviously, this works only if the sticks are at right angles to the board, so, believe it or not, I put them at right angles to the board.

So, my winding sticks currently are different lengths and different widths (heights). I'll carry on using them until I find myself needing an off-cut of precisely the dimensions of one of them and it gets built into a piece of furniture. I'll then reach into my off-cuts stock and plane up another one, which will be any old width, any old length, and utterly unreferenced to its partner.

I am quite a supporter of yours on this board. I like the fact that you cut through the crap about reference faces,"must have another specialist tool", "need 17 planes at least", and all that. I like the fact that you speak from experience, and have a lifelong stock of simple robust techniques to impart here. I am a fellow traveller. A pragmatic hand-tool user. A joiner, using traditional joints, well made. I don't see the need for all sorts of flash tools sold to hobbyists as necessities. But all that being said, you have a fault: you don't consider any way other than your way to be worthwhile, and this winding stick nonsense is a good example. I'll turn the tables around, now, and ask you to go and find a couple of reasonable off-cuts of different sectional and length dimensions (hell, you can use a piece of 4x2 for one of them), and go try sighting a board my way. You won't like it as much as your way, because you've been doing it your way for donkey's years. But at least you'll see that my way works too, and maybe you won't be quite so quick to dismiss simple, robust, tried-and-tested alternatives hereafter.

 

[galleywood]

MikeG

Thanks for describing the way you use winding sticks - it never occured to me to line up with the bottom of the far stick.
I will make some and use with confidence.

 

[Jacob]

Bottom edge will work of course, but only when they are parallel.
It's just simple geometry.
For all intents and purposes it won't matter much if they just placed by eye, but in fact the further away from parallel the greater the error. Using the top edge of two identical sticks removed this error.
It's just simple geometry.
I'm not being dogmatic, it's not my way, it's just simple geometry and is the reason why winding sticks are assumed to be identical.

PS easy to prove: set up your sticks on a flat surface with top edge and the further stick bottom edge in line. Turn the further one a bit skewed across, and they won't be in line.
I'm doing it now on the kitchen table with two books - easy to set up the top/bottom edges in line, turn one slightly and they are out.
I can see that you can get away with doing it with a little error, but there is no need.

 

[Silly_Billy]

oh yes here they are

£55 for winding sticks! :roll:
I'm sure they're lovely sticks, but £55 would get me either of the smaller Quangsheng bronze planes with change to spare!

 

[MikeG.]

Bottom edge will work of course........

So do you accept that when you said:

......................Nope. They have to be identical........

that you were wrong? (Hint: yes, you were).

 

[MikeG.]

........PS easy to prove: set up your sticks on a flat surface with top edge and the further stick bottom edge in line. Turn the further one a bit skewed across, and they won't be in line.

Go back and re-read my post, Jacob. You obviously missed this bit:

........Obviously, this works only if the sticks are at right angles to the board, so, believe it or not, I put them at right angles to the board...........

If they are both at right angles to the board, would you describe them as being parallel? You being so keen on your "simple geometry" and all......

 

[Jacob]

If not identical, or if using top/bottom edge - they have to be parallel or there will be an error.
It's just simple geometry.
Top to top identical edge means no error and you don't have to set them parallel or at right angles to the workpiece, you can just drop them on, any old flat surface, even if it has a wany edge or is a disc!
So yes you right Mike - it'll work but only if they are parallel, but I'm right too - it'll work even if they aren't parallel but are identical! Might as well make them identical and keep it simple!

Are we nearly there yet? :lol:

 

[galleywood]

I think care needs to be taken when saying that sticks need to be parralel.
There is a need for the sides of one (or both, depending on your point of view) to be made parralel.
There is a separate need for the sticks to be placed parralel when sighting them on a board.
Without clarification it is easy to misinterpret.

 

[Woody2Shoes]

Having (speed) read this thread, I will now always think of "winding sticks" as "wind-up sticks".... :!:

 

[MikeG.]

If not identical, or if using top/bottom edge - they have to be parallel or there will be an error.
It's just simple geometry.
Top to top identical edge means no error and you don't have to set them parallel or at right angles to the workpiece, you can just drop them on, any old flat surface, even if it has a wany edge or is a disc!

Please tell me why you keep "correcting" me, by repeating stuff I agree with. By repeating stuff I've already posted. It's almost as though the argument is more important than the content.

 

[MikeG.]

I think care needs to be taken when saying that sticks need to be parralel.
There is a need for the sides of one (or both, depending on your point of view) to be made parralel.
There is a separate need for the sticks to be placed parralel when sighting them on a board.
Without clarification it is easy to misinterpret.

Indeed.

For clarification. With my method, the near stick needs to have a parallel top and bottom edge (the far one doesn't). They need to be placed at right angles to the board (which means they are parallel with each other).