Lie Nielsen A2 Steel.

[Paul Chapman]

It seems clear to me that the people who do not get on with A2 are either; using innapropriate honing angles, or perhaps struggling with traditional oil stones.

But the problem identified in this thread is about inconsistencies in A2 blades. Mark has found that the A2 blade in his LN #60 1/2 is superb whereas the A2 blade in his LN #4 has problems with the edge crumbling, even when honed at a steeper angle. Other people have posted about this before, which suggests inconsistencies in the manufacturing process.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Aled Dafis]

I concur on the superbness (I know it's not really a word) of the A2 blade in the LN 60 1/2, however I just couldn't get on with A2 in my Veritas Low Angle planes, I kept the jack although it hardly gets used, but sold the LAS.

The LN 60 1/2 is a classic, and should be in everybody's toolkit, it really is that good!

Cheers
Aled

 

[Modernist]

It seems clear to me that the people who do not get on with A2 are either; using innapropriate honing angles, or perhaps struggling with traditional oil stones.

But the problem identified in this thread is about inconsistencies in A2 blades. Mark has found that the A2 blade in his LN #60 1/2 is superb whereas the A2 blade in his LN #4 has problems with the edge crumbling, even when honed at a steeper angle. Other people have posted about this before, which suggests inconsistencies in the manufacturing process.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

I agree with Paul. I have and have had several examples from both LN and Veritas and experienced varying performance which I have reported from time to time. On one hand skew block irons failing at 30 deg (particularly surprising with the skew) whilst my LN 4 1/2 (honed 30 deg) has never chipped or crumbled despite being used on some very hard timbers. Although I don't use micro bevels myself these would surely ease the stress on the edge and certainly raise the honing angle to a safe 32 deg plus as described by DC. Clearly if the edge fails then any life advantages are lost but, when this is not a problem then the edge life is very impressive and useful.

 

[Jacob]

...... How does one decide when an edge is so bad that it needs resharpening? This point was extremely subjective and therefore unreliable.

In use, in the old fashioned way i.e. many hours of planing in one session, a sharpening routine and interval "evolves" naturally. So to compare sharpening intervals you'd have to study someone on the job for a longish period, and see how it pans out with different tools.

....
It seems clear to me that the people who do not get on with A2 are either; using innapropriate honing angles, or perhaps struggling with traditional oil stones. Diamond, ceramic and waterstones seem to do a good job.

Beast wishes,
David Charlesworth

I do mine with an oil stone and no struggling is involved at all. Couldn't be easier.
Maybe oil stones are the answer, not the problem?
It's too simplistic to blame the user - I blame the steel. It seems to be inconsistent - which is the same as unreliable.
So don't buy it unless you want to take pot luck and accept that you might have to exchange it.

PS just noticed the "Beast wishes" :lol:

 

[Vann]

...Beast wishes,

I don't think that's a typo Jacob, I think you just have that effect on people.... (hammer)

Cheers, Vann.

 

[David C]

Perhaps it's the proximity to Dartmoor?

No really, I was delighted to hear that Jacob was enjoying the benefits of A2.

David C

 

[Jacob]

Right. I might try honing it at 30º and then presumably I'll have something to complain about.

 

[mtr1]

It seems clear to me that the people who do not get on with A2 are either; using innapropriate honing angles, or perhaps struggling with traditional oil stones.

But the problem identified in this thread is about inconsistencies in A2 blades. Mark has found that the A2 blade in his LN #60 1/2 is superb whereas the A2 blade in his LN #4 has problems with the edge crumbling, even when honed at a steeper angle. Other people have posted about this before, which suggests inconsistencies in the manufacturing process.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

Exactly Paul, I might of confused matters when I said my primary grinding angle was 34 deg, it is in fact about 32deg with the honed edge 34 deg. But the instructions that came with the plane from L/N states...

The blade is ground sharp at a 25°. A secondary bevel of up to 5 degrees helps to achieve a razor edge quickly.

So it should be okay how I originally had it set up as per instructions, which is how all my other planes and chisels are anyway. This didn't get me the results I was looking for, because the edge just kept giving me trouble at these angles. I took some of Paul's/Brian's advise and increased the primary bevel to 32°, and the honed edge at 34°. But was still getting the same results. I concluded that I must have a duff iron. I don't personally think that the primary angle makes any difference, because this isn't the bit that hits the timber, and probably could of just left it at 25° and honed the edge to 34°. I also don't think it makes any difference what I hone the iron with, be it oil stones or whatever, but I used a diamond stone, and I have a few bits of 3M? paper that matthew sent on my last order. I did use a honing jig in this instance. I have never blued any of my edge tools since I was an apprentice, and use the creusen bench grinder because I don't get much heat build up with it. I doubt I will get the iron back now, because the last thing I said was 'just send me a new iron'. Pity, because I would of liked to of got it tested properly, rather than have one of Axminsters tutors talk to me like I know bugger all.

 

[David C]

Mark,

Perhaps its not too late to ask Axminster for your iron?

Heat treatment problems are always a possibility.

David C

 

[Jacob]

......I doubt I will get the iron back now, because the last thing I said was 'just send me a new iron'. Pity, because I would of liked to of got it tested properly, rather than have one of Axminsters tutors talk to me like I know pipper all.

Sounds like you have tested it pretty thoroughly and proved that it's cr@p. What better test is there compared to subjecting the thing to normal use, as you would with your other irons?

 

[Cheshirechappie]

The following is a brief summary of data set out in Uddeholm's data sheet 'A2 Steel' (sorry - I can't do links for some reason)-

Hardening - Preheat to 650-750C, Austenising Temp. 925-970C, but ususally 940-960C. Soak at temperature for 20-40 mins, depending on final hardness required. Protect against decarburisation and oxidation during hardening.

Quench - in Martempering bath or fluidised bed at 180-220C or 450-500C, then cool in air
Or - in circulating air or atmosphere'
Or - in vacuum furnace with overpressure of gas at cooling,
Or - in oil (for small and uncomplicated tools).

Maximum achievable hardness RC 63-64.

Tempering - Temper twice with intermediate cooling to room temperature. Lowest tempering temperature 180C. Holding time at temperature min. 2 hrs. (For final hardness of RC 60, tempering temp of about 180 - 200C, depending on initial hardening temperature).

Sub-zero treatment and Aging - Immediately after quenching, the piece should be refrigerated between -40 and -80C, followed by tempering or aging. Sub-zero refrigeration for 2-3 hrs will give a hardness increase of 1-3 RC. Tempering after quenching can be replaced by aging at 110-140C, holding for 25-100 hrs.


That's quite a complex hardening regime, with plenty of scope for things to go a bit wrong in either temperatures or timings.

It's not unusual in the engineering world for things to things to take time to settle down when a new process or material is tried in a particular application. The unexpected does sometimes happen, and additions are made to the sum of experience by what transpires in practice. Quite small differences in chemical composition, forming, machining and heat treatment regimes can make a significant difference to how complex steels behave in different applications, so an element of 'try it and see' still informs the (incredibly complex) science of metallurgy.

Quite how Axminster's expert reached the conclusion he did is hard to understand - I suspect he just jumped to a conclusion without any evidence to support it.

The bulk of experience suggests that when A2 steel is correctly treated, it performs very well as a woodworking cutting-iron toolsteel. However, it is possible that some bugs may have arisen in the manufaturing process of some examples of A2 irons, and some rogue irons may still be 'out there'.

 

[rwyoung]

No evidence, the guy asked what I had used to re-grind the bevel, and I told him a bench grinder. He then told me that was the problem then, I must of heated the iron and ruined the hardness. I told him that the stone I used was a soft white, on a slow bench grinder, he told me that makes no difference. I then felt the need to tell him my occuption and how long I had been doing it, and that I hadn't had a problem with my other A2 irons/chisels or for that matter any of my other edge tools.
He then went on to say that the primery bevel was a bit strange at 25 degrees, I didn't bother to tell him that it was in fact about 34 degrees, as I was starting to feel a little bit cheesed off. I think I might of said it wasnt anything I had done, and have had the iron for a while and have tried to make it work, I thought it was a tempering fault at source as I had never been able to get a lasting edge on it. Do others not re-grind bevels on a bench grinder? I would compare this irons edge to a broken digestive biscut after planing oak for 5 mins. As jake has stated, thankfully the maufacturer doesn't think along the same lines.

Sooo, wandering in from the wrong side of the pond:

I would suggest you arrange to get your A2 blade back from Axminster and find an inexpensive method to mail it to LN headquarters and let them test it.

Rob Young

 

[TheTiddles]

Do remember that if you have overheated it and I do mean if, that you may only have done so right at the edge, you can't harness test just the edge, you have to do the bulk of the material which is away from the heat generated by the grinding process.

Aidan

 

[tomatwark]

I concur on the superbness (I know it's not really a word) of the A2 blade in the LN 60 1/2, however I just couldn't get on with A2 in my Veritas Low Angle planes, I kept the jack although it hardly gets used, but sold the LAS.

The LN 60 1/2 is a classic, and should be in everybody's toolkit, it really is that good!

Cheers
Aled

I bought a couple LN blades for my Record planes about 10 years ago.

The 4 1/2 blade has been great but the one I bought for my No3 I could not get to keep an edge, also I had similar problems, although no where near as bad with my 60 1/2.

I bought a couple of Quensheng blades off Workshop Heaven last year to replace the No3 and 60 1/2 blades, and they keep their edge a lot better, so I think there is something in the idea that LN have had a problem with hardening on and off over the years, but at least it seems they are prepared to sort out the problem when someone mentions it to them, I guess in some respects it is just cheaper for them to replace the blade than get involved in a big discussion on how a user sharpens their planes.

The 60 1/2 is a lovely plane and I would not be without it.

Mark

As for this over heating of the blade the Axminster guy blamed you for, I was taught to grind my chisels and plane irons on a high speed grinder when I was an apprentice.

And while learning I did occasionally blue the odd one ( as most of us who have ground tools this way will have done at one time or another) but it only effected the cutting edge at that point and not over the whole blade and I am still using a lot of those same chisels etc 25 + years later and now they are past that spot are perfectly fine and take a good edge.

I now use a water cooled grinder, but 25 years ago they were not that common.

Tom

 

[mtr1]

My old iron is being shipped to L/N for testing, and I received my new iron today . It came very sharp, and worked a treat on oak, oak knots, and some hemlock knots for the ultimate test. My new iron has had a hardness test, judging by the tiny dent. I'm very happy with how Lie Nielsen have stepped up, and will continue to buy their products, but perhaps not from Axi.

 

[Paul Chapman]

That's good news, Mark. LN have a good reputation for customer service and will always sort out problems with their products.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Karl]

Glad you've got the new blade sorted Mark.

I've had a recent experience with Axi where I bought a LN plane only to find that it didn't come in the normal blue sealed bag. Curious. Then on checking the plane over, there were a few glaring cosmetic flaws with the finish, and it seemed clear to me that the plane had previously been returned to Axi. So I did the same - fair play, they refunded me no problem, but I don't think it should have been sent out in the first place.

I'm also surprised that they haven't chipped into this thread - they're normally on the ball with picking up on -ve threads.

Cheers

Karl