Learning to dovetail

[pgrbff]

I think it unreasonable to suggest you not use a Japanese saw, as has been said it is all about practise and muscle memory. If you have used neither extensively, start with one, my preference would be a Japanese, but that is what I prefer, and if at sometime you want to try a Western do so.
The Gyokucho 372 deep rip blade is a good not too delicate Japanese saw.
https://www.workshopheaven.com/gyokucho-372-professional-rip-dozuki-240mm/It can also be found with a rubber handle.

 

[Jameshow]

Veritas dovetail saws are good saws so I'm told, not cheap, but Christmas is coming!!!

 

[MikeJhn]

Does a horse pull the cart or push it!

All accords if you are "putting the horse before the cart" or not.

 

[Hornbeam]

Dovetails are about 2 elements

• accurate marking
• ability to cut to a line

It wont make any real difference which type of saw (tennon/dovetail /japanese) Use what you feel most comfortable with,
I personally prefer the japanese doziuki but as it has such a narrow kerf and set you have very little ability to adjust the saw cut once started but cuts a very nice smooth line.
I would also say that it is easier to produce good looking lapped dovetails than through dovetails as with through dovetails, you only see one side of the joint. Whats going inside could be a dogs breakfast and nobody would know,
If you were cutting lots of joints the jigs may be a route but for 1 small box its more hassle to set up than had cut

 

[Jameshow]

Also remember that dovetails in hardwood are a very different animal to those in pine!

 

[Jacob]

I think the trickiest bit is marking through the pinholes to the pins.
I use a chisel end craft knife - get the bevel on the right side and tap it in flush against the edge of the hole. Idi ot proof, quick, and dead precise. Knife is hardest and pencil can be too chunky depending on what you are doing

 

[Adam W.]

Pins first of course.

 

[Jacob]

Pins first of course.

Yes if you like an unnecessary challenge!
The reason for tails is first is that you can clamp your two drawer sides together in the vice and do them in one go.

 

[Adam W.]

Yes if you like an unnecessary challenge!

Not really, if you know what you're doing. I bet there are more joiners in the world cutting pins first than there are those who are doing it the wrong way around.

 

[Jacob]

Not really, if you know what you're doing. I bet there are more joiners in the world cutting pins first than there are those who are doing it the wrong way around.

I've looked at a lot of old hand cut DTs in drawers over the years and they all seem to be done tails first as a pair. You can tell by the way the little variations/mistakes match.
Also much faster and easier freehand as you don't have to work to lines, for the tails at least, though you can pencil mark to get them spaced evenly.
Also much easier to mark through for the pins.
You do have to work to lines for the pins of course. You can't cut pins as a pair.
I've never tried doing it the difficult way I guess I'm just lazy!

 

[Dibs-h]

I was taught tails 1st. I suppose there's 2 ways to skin this cat and it's ultimately down to how you learnt and\or what you feel comfortable with.

Bit like how some folk put the right shoe on 1st and others the left shoe 1st. LOL

 

[Adam W.]

I've looked at a lot of old hand cut DTs in drawers over the years and they all seem to be done tails first as a pair. You can tell by the way the little variations/mistakes match.
Also much faster and easier freehand as you don't have to work to lines, for the tails at least, though you can pencil mark to get them spaced evenly.
Also much easier to mark through for the pins.
You do have to work to lines for the pins of course. You can't cut pins as a pair.
I've never tried doing it the difficult way I guess I'm just lazy!

If you've never tried, how do you know the way you are doing it is best, even if it is cack handed ?

 

[Jacob]

If you've never tried, how do you know the way you are doing it is best, even if it is cack handed ?

I might have a go one day! Maybe all those old woodworkers were missing a trick and doing it all wrong?

 

[Adam W.]

Probably just a bit too foreign for the poor dears.

 

[thetyreman]

I've done both pins and tails first, I seem to remember custard saying it's pins first for mitred dovetails, and tails first for through dovetails, you can also put a tiny rebate on the pins, that can help with marking out. (make sure you do the rebate first though)

 

[tibi]

Pins with left hand and tails with right hand simultaneously One man, two vices, ...

 

[Blackswanwood]

Probably just a bit too foreign for the poor dears.

Ok Adam … I’ve only ever cut tails first but will try most things once … what’s the rationale for pins and not tails first?

 

[Dibs-h]

Ok Adam … I’ve only ever cut tails first but will try most things once … what’s the rationale for pins and not tails first?

https://www.finewoodworking.com/199...he dovetail pins first,as you mark the tails.
Found the above - next time, will try the pins 1st method.

 

[IWW]

Not really, if you know what you're doing. I bet there are more joiners in the world cutting pins first than there are those who are doing it the wrong way around.

Adam, I also very much doubt this - can you produce any evidence? Both the old cabinetmakers I worked with (trained in the 1920s) were "tails-first" dovetailers. Could you explain the advantages of "pins first"?

I have tried both ways, out of curiosity, and of course it's do-able, but for me it's far easier to mark the pin board accurately from the tails than the other way round. Balancing the pin board on end over the tail board is awkward and you can't see what you are doing so easily. And as jacob said, with "tails first" you can saw both drawer sides at once, which speeds things up a bit when you've got a whole set of drawers to make.

I also doubt there are many pro joiners left in the world who still cut dovetails - my nephew trained as a "joiner" and the only dovetails he ever made were at trade school. Dovetails aren't really a feature of particle-board jionery.....

Cheers,
Ian

 

[Jacob]

Probably just a bit too foreign for the poor dears.

We don't have to do euro dovetails anymore, thanks to brexit, the gift that keeps on giving.