dchenard
Established Member
Cosman had one of those fishtails at his booth last week, I was wondering what it was for...
Thanks for the heads-up.
DC
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Cosman had one of those fishtails at his booth last week, I was wondering what it was for...
Thanks for the heads-up.
DC
David C
In Memorium
Dear Derek,
I have not tried a skew at the angle supplied by Crown.
Could you possibly explain in what cutting operations you find their acute angle useful please? I do not use my skews at all in through dovetailing and suspect that you may have some cunning application.
BTW my pair are reground 6mm (1/4") chisels, as I need to get into a narrow socket at the edges of secret mitre dovetails.
Have never understood why commercial ones seem to be 1/2" or wider.
Cosman's rationale is efficiency, which is good, one chisel instead of two, but it looks rather unkind to me, on the chisel I mean, and I don't think his variation will get into those small sockets.
David
I have not tried a skew at the angle supplied by Crown.
Could you possibly explain in what cutting operations you find their acute angle useful please? I do not use my skews at all in through dovetailing and suspect that you may have some cunning application.
BTW my pair are reground 6mm (1/4") chisels, as I need to get into a narrow socket at the edges of secret mitre dovetails.
Have never understood why commercial ones seem to be 1/2" or wider.
Cosman's rationale is efficiency, which is good, one chisel instead of two, but it looks rather unkind to me, on the chisel I mean, and I don't think his variation will get into those small sockets.
David
Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)
Established Member
Hi David
These Crown skews chisels are a waste of money as dovetail chisels go. They were an impulse purchase some years ago. They are 1/2" wide, which is not the main problem, but rather that they are thick and very long - like over long firmers with a skew bevel. The width does limit them to more widely spaced tails, since this equates to wider pins. I plan to grind a few of my own skews now.
My "weapons" for dovetailing include a couple of Matsumura Japanese dovetail chisels when I need to use a mallet, but mostly I use a set of 1/8" - 1/2" Berg pairing chisels that I have reground and rehandled just for dovetailing (these are very sweet - a light and delicate balance). I have 1/4" and 3/8" fishtail chisels, which are usually all that are needed.
So how and when do I use the Crown skews? They are almost the same angle as a heavy duty Japanese knife I have, but have more authority, so are prefered when clearing out inside corners of tails. Think of peeling an apple!
No cunning application I'm afraid - unless you want to come over and find out whether they make good kebab skewers! :shock:
Regards from Perth
Derek
These Crown skews chisels are a waste of money as dovetail chisels go. They were an impulse purchase some years ago. They are 1/2" wide, which is not the main problem, but rather that they are thick and very long - like over long firmers with a skew bevel. The width does limit them to more widely spaced tails, since this equates to wider pins. I plan to grind a few of my own skews now.
My "weapons" for dovetailing include a couple of Matsumura Japanese dovetail chisels when I need to use a mallet, but mostly I use a set of 1/8" - 1/2" Berg pairing chisels that I have reground and rehandled just for dovetailing (these are very sweet - a light and delicate balance). I have 1/4" and 3/8" fishtail chisels, which are usually all that are needed.
So how and when do I use the Crown skews? They are almost the same angle as a heavy duty Japanese knife I have, but have more authority, so are prefered when clearing out inside corners of tails. Think of peeling an apple!
No cunning application I'm afraid - unless you want to come over and find out whether they make good kebab skewers! :shock:
Regards from Perth
Derek
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Always thinking about the right tool for the job, I was looking at this set of skew chisels which seem to have a more acute angle and shorter handle and blade length. How useful do you think this kind of chisel would be for doing dovetails by hand?
http://www.garrettwade.com/jump.jsp?ite ... mID=103414
Shawn
http://www.garrettwade.com/jump.jsp?ite ... mID=103414
Shawn
Wiley Horne
Established Member
Shawn,
Those are too wide. Look at Mr. Charlesworth's post just above. He is talking about a 1/4" tool (6mm). By the way, most any old 1/4" chisel that you find at a boot sale or wherever will do this job--you just sharpen it to a skew angle. One other 'by the way', I usually do this job with an ordinary straight 4.5mm chisel, simply because it's nearer to hand than going to fetch the skews from the other end of the bench. There are three approach angles into the corner of a half blind socket, and two of 'em of straight shots.
Wiley
Those are too wide. Look at Mr. Charlesworth's post just above. He is talking about a 1/4" tool (6mm). By the way, most any old 1/4" chisel that you find at a boot sale or wherever will do this job--you just sharpen it to a skew angle. One other 'by the way', I usually do this job with an ordinary straight 4.5mm chisel, simply because it's nearer to hand than going to fetch the skews from the other end of the bench. There are three approach angles into the corner of a half blind socket, and two of 'em of straight shots.
Wiley
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Mr_Grimsdale":1f12054k said:
No, exactly why it pays to ask for some experienced wisdom on this site. I was asking about the angle of the skew and the length of the blades/handles more than anything. Some examples of skew chisels I've seen seem to have very shallow skews, which I'd have thought would limit their usefulness.
Having said all that, I've not done many blind dovetails and haven't really needed a skew chisel to do the ones I have done. I think the fishtail looks like a neat solution to the access problem, though. Might get myself down to the bootsale soon to pick up the raw material for one!
Shawn
David C
In Memorium
Wylie,
That remind's me of when I started learning.
The technique first taught to me, just blast slightly too deep into the far corner with an 1/8" chisel.......
This worked OK but I prefer the neater look from the 1:6 skews.
This neatness does little to improve the joint But I get a lot of satisfaction from neat corners................
These little foibles can be good for the soul.....or is it just pride?
Derek,
Thank you, I cannot concieve of a use for the 1/2 " Crown design.........yet.
In a similar vein I can't find a use for the very long sharp edges on Japanese knife, looks more suited to animal skinning to me, and very easy to cut yourself on the heel end of the bevel.
David
That remind's me of when I started learning.
The technique first taught to me, just blast slightly too deep into the far corner with an 1/8" chisel.......
This worked OK but I prefer the neater look from the 1:6 skews.
This neatness does little to improve the joint But I get a lot of satisfaction from neat corners................
These little foibles can be good for the soul.....or is it just pride?
Derek,
Thank you, I cannot concieve of a use for the 1/2 " Crown design.........yet.
In a similar vein I can't find a use for the very long sharp edges on Japanese knife, looks more suited to animal skinning to me, and very easy to cut yourself on the heel end of the bevel.
David
bugbear
Established Member
David C":2hwm0v3o said:
Heh; crude but effective, and once the joint is closed, no one will ever know...
BugBear
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woodbloke
Established Member
Mr G wrote:
Don't agree here at all Mr G I'm afeared. In my view the satisfaction comes from making all parts of the job as good as you can possibly do them without cutting corners at the expense of time or sometimes money. As an amateur maker that is a luxury that I can afford but will concede that different constraints may apply if you have to earn a crust from making sawdust.
I am building my elm cabinet this winter and recently finished doing the back, solid elm frame with two floating elm panels. This has been niggling me for some time - I didn't do it in quite the right way and had I fitted it to the cabinet later on (and it would be against a wall where no one will see it) I would always know that it was rubbish and it would irritate me....I would have always been looking at the back and thinking ...Hmmm. Consequently the finished and polished panel went thru' the bandsaw the other night and I have prepared some new timber which is adjusting in the 'shop.
When I was working in the trade, my then boss made a piece for David Linley which was then inspected at length by one of his minions. Now Dick had used some ordinary 75mm pozidrive screws in the construction, thinking that they wouldn't be seen, which were buried deep on the underside of the piece..nothing wrong with that. Linleys bloke looked underneath and said that when the next piece made it would be using... 'proper brass countersunk screws, with the heads mirror polished'... Dicky just mumbled something in the affirmative and turned a little bit pale :shock:
As JK has said in one of his books, its as easy to do a job correctly ( and he was talking about back panel construction) and to your satisfaction as do it badly - Rob
Don't agree here at all Mr G I'm afeared. In my view the satisfaction comes from making all parts of the job as good as you can possibly do them without cutting corners at the expense of time or sometimes money. As an amateur maker that is a luxury that I can afford but will concede that different constraints may apply if you have to earn a crust from making sawdust.
I am building my elm cabinet this winter and recently finished doing the back, solid elm frame with two floating elm panels. This has been niggling me for some time - I didn't do it in quite the right way and had I fitted it to the cabinet later on (and it would be against a wall where no one will see it) I would always know that it was rubbish and it would irritate me....I would have always been looking at the back and thinking ...Hmmm. Consequently the finished and polished panel went thru' the bandsaw the other night and I have prepared some new timber which is adjusting in the 'shop.
When I was working in the trade, my then boss made a piece for David Linley which was then inspected at length by one of his minions. Now Dick had used some ordinary 75mm pozidrive screws in the construction, thinking that they wouldn't be seen, which were buried deep on the underside of the piece..nothing wrong with that. Linleys bloke looked underneath and said that when the next piece made it would be using... 'proper brass countersunk screws, with the heads mirror polished'... Dicky just mumbled something in the affirmative and turned a little bit pale
:shock:As JK has said in one of his books, its as easy to do a job correctly ( and he was talking about back panel construction) and to your satisfaction as do it badly - Rob
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Roger
Established Member
You're right with that one Mr. G .....
The old Masters certainly practiced that - when a penny was worth a fortune, time was way too valuable to spend on a hidden feature that never saw the light of day! It certainly didn't detract from either their reputation, place in history or the quality of the pieces produced.
The old Masters certainly practiced that - when a penny was worth a fortune, time was way too valuable to spend on a hidden feature that never saw the light of day! It certainly didn't detract from either their reputation, place in history or the quality of the pieces produced.
woodbloke
Established Member
Mr G - as I said, different constraints apply if you make a living from building stuff. If batch producing a quantity of cabinets as opposed to just one, then different techniques might be employed to save time (eg a greater use of machinery to prepare and finish timber, standardizing of component parts, spray finishing etc etc) but the quality of the overall workmanship ought not to be diminished.
I do agree tho' that whist much old furniture is breathtaking in the standard of work achieved (in common with much of today's pieces) an awful lot was produced to a standard which was deplorable (again the same thing happens today). A little trawl thru' Joyce's book will amply illustrate the point. I think that different constraints and pressures on the makers and firms that produce the furniture give rise to varying qualities. From my own perspective, making on-offs at leisure, its worth attempting to do the very best, simply for my own satisfaction - Rob
I do agree tho' that whist much old furniture is breathtaking in the standard of work achieved (in common with much of today's pieces) an awful lot was produced to a standard which was deplorable (again the same thing happens today). A little trawl thru' Joyce's book will amply illustrate the point. I think that different constraints and pressures on the makers and firms that produce the furniture give rise to varying qualities. From my own perspective, making on-offs at leisure, its worth attempting to do the very best, simply for my own satisfaction - Rob
engineer one
Established Member
for those of use who remember certain kinds of motorcycles, and were involved in exhibition work for motor or motorcycle shows, there is the famous Brough Superior story.
pre war Brough we aligned with Rolls Royce in their reputation, which considering they were a company that used many proprietory items said much for their production. for those who don't know Lawrence of Arabia used many Broughs, and was killed whilst riding one.
however before one Earls Court exhibition George Brough was inspecting the display models and said "that tank is not good enough, but the tank builder said there's no time to make another" George took a hammer and smashed the tank, saying "there is now" :twisted:
the important thing is that the amateur does have time, and may well feel that it is important whilst the professional needs to do the best in the time.
this does not diminish from either, just reflects a different approach at the time.
paul :wink:
pre war Brough we aligned with Rolls Royce in their reputation, which considering they were a company that used many proprietory items said much for their production. for those who don't know Lawrence of Arabia used many Broughs, and was killed whilst riding one.
however before one Earls Court exhibition George Brough was inspecting the display models and said "that tank is not good enough, but the tank builder said there's no time to make another" George took a hammer and smashed the tank, saying "there is now" :twisted:
the important thing is that the amateur does have time, and may well feel that it is important whilst the professional needs to do the best in the time.
this does not diminish from either, just reflects a different approach at the time.
paul :wink:
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Anonymous
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I think the price reflects the standard of quality and build, I can build virtually the same pieces of furniture and yet the prices can be very different. Due to build methods, materials used etc.
The price quoted should reflect the build quality, the difficult part is assessing what the customer can afford.
The price quoted should reflect the build quality, the difficult part is assessing what the customer can afford.
woodbloke
Established Member
....and price is obviously one of the main constraints - Rob
