Kitchen Cabinets

[RogerS]

Byron....have you seen this topic re wood worktops vs other materials and discusses the hassle in keeping wooden worktops looking pristine throughout their working life?

Re...drainage bits and pieces....I gave up using those 'orrible white things from the likes of Osma et al...large, clunky and always get in the way. Instead I use a much more elegant system from Italy that allow you to fit the waste traps etc well out of the way at the back of the cabinet and which take up much less front-to-back depth then the clunky white ones. if you're interested I can try and locate the manufacturers' name for you.

There is also this linkon fitting waste pipes, slopes etc.

 

[devonwoody]

Kitchen cabinet pricing. Whatever price (even 50% off prices) ~Dont buy unless unless you can get 50%off ( even the 50% ones).
The trade sell to tradesmen at reduced prices.

 

[ByronBlack]

Well, I've bought half the kitchen. I went to wickes last night and picked up about 6 cabinets which will go on my west wall and an appliance cover for the tumble dryer. We've decided to leave the other appliances where they are so we don't have to touch the plumbing. Maybe next year when we have more cash we'll think about getting a plumber in to maybe move them..

Average prices of the cabs are:

500m Base = £34
1000m Base = £42 (wall £40)

Appliance door =£26

Retrofit Soft close fixtures (bag of 5) £10

Our entire order came to just over £200 which I think is quite good value for a 'take away' solution.

The cabs themselves are 15mm MFC with hardboard back - i'll be putting in a solid back alround from the remnants of the current kitchen cabinets and doors - might as well recycle They are supplied 4 adjustable feet and are held together with dowels and knockdown joints. I'll be putting together with glue and carcass screws to add strength.

The doors are 18mm MDF which have the 'panels' routed with a v-cutter. (very easy to replicate which Is what I wanted). However, the finish is like a very thin vinyl veneer which gives a very fine textured surface, so i'm not sure how best to match this if I make some of my own custom sized doors - any ideas?

Tonight i'll be fitting the wall cabinets (depending on time) what is the best way to fix these? Those little white blocks, or french cleat?

By the way, the price for the cabs includes the door, handle and hings.

 

[Scrit]

The doors are 18mm MDF which have the 'panels' routed with a v-cutter. (very easy to replicate which Is what I wanted). However, the finish is like a very thin vinyl veneer which gives a very fine textured surface, so i'm not sure how best to match this if I make some of my own custom sized doors - any ideas?

The finish is probably what is called "vinyl wrap" where a very thin sheet of vinyl is sprayed with a thin coating of PUR glue (a form of heat-activated polyurethanse glue, i.e. hot melt) then heat/vacuum stretched and bonded simultaneuosly onto an MDF blank. The MDF blank is normally faced on one side with pre-applied melamine. You can't buy this stuff, so just use MR-MDF instead. It is actually quite difficult to match the surface lustre of these doors, possibly Terry Smart would like to comment about using melamine lacquer which is the nearest match I can think of in terms of surface appearance providing the MDF surface is well primed with a high solids undercoat.

Tonight i'll be fitting the wall cabinets (depending on time) what is the best way to fix these? Those little white blocks, or french cleat?

Do you mean fix the backs in position or hang the cabinets?

If it's fix the backs in position I'd suggest screwing through the sides of the cabinets with black carcass screws (or failing those Spax or Reissers, #7 x 1-1/2in or the metric equivalent approx. 3.5 or 4 x 35 or 40mm). This will leave three screws visible at the ends of the runs so another solution needs to be found there such as concealment caps:

pocket hole screws down that edge of the back screwed into the sides of the cab from the rear. An alternative might be either to rebate the new backs so that you can re-use the existing grooves or re-route the existing grooves wider to accommodate the thicker backs. Make sure that the the extra thickness of the new backs is accommodated on the inside of the cab so that the positioning of the rear face of the back relative to the wall is unchanged. A spot of glue in the grooves will make for a more rigid carcass, especially if you can leave it clamped up for a few hours before hanging the cab. I'd also add a spot of glue to the carcass dowels when you are assembling.

For hanging the cabs should come with hangers and plates like these from Woodfit:

Just ensure that you notch-out the top corners of the new backs to accommodate the hangers before you install them and fix the hanging brackets to the cab sides before applying the top. What type of wall are you going into? Is it solid?

BTW, where do you need the mod blocks? :?

Scrit

 

[Keith Smith]

I'll be putting together with glue and carcass screws to add strength.

Sometimes the MFC isn't dense enough to take screws well and putting extra screws in ends up weakening the cabinet.

I use an adhesive/sealant in the joint (Gripfill max or Sikaflex SBK), this is thick stuff so the cabinet will need cramping together; I don't rely on the dowel pegs pulling it up.

This makes an incredibly strong cabinet and as all the open ends are completely sealed far more durable.

Keith

 

[ivan]

A fall of greater thatn 1 in 100 is usually taken to be the limit if you want to keep solids and liquids flowing together (greater fall can leave the solids behind) This is the figure used in agriculture, and I bet the building regs have one for domestic drainage.

 

[jasonB]

For small waste pipe (32,40 & 50mm) you should use a fall of 2.5 degrees. This is why elbows and teesare actually 92.5 degrees and not 90.

So for a 3.0m length of pipe you need a drop of 130mm, which provided the invert where your pipe exits the wall is not too high should not be a problem. To be safe I would incorporate a rodding point at the end of the run although if the appliance trap is a compression fitting that can easily be romoved to rod the pipe.

I would not recommend going into a rainwater pipe unless you can confirm that it goes into the main drainage and not into a soakaway/watercoarse.

Ivan standard fall on a 110mm drain is 1:40

Jason

Jason

 

[ByronBlack]

Scrit - I meant hanging the cabinets, so thanks for the info regarding that. And good info regarding the finish. I'll look into that lacquer. It doesn't need to be 100% as i'll mostly be making a few thin doors to cover small gaps and a couple of narrow cabinets in dark corners.

I haven't unpacked the cabs yet so didn't realise they were supplied with brackets, i'll check that out. When you talk about the black carcass screws - are these the same as black drywall screws? The reason I ask is when I was in wickes they only had tubs of black drywall screws and none labelled as carcass screws..

Not sure what you mean by 'mod' blocks - I assume you mean the little lego-brick style thingy, if so - thats what I thought the cabs were hung with (as my mum's kitchen has those - but that is about 20 years old now).

The wall is solid, it's the dividing wall between me and the neighbours.

Keith - thanks for the recommendation on the glue. I was going to use regular titebond but I think i'll get some gripfill as i've seen that mentioned a lot in regards to DIY jobs.

 

[jasonB]

Byron, these are the type of screw, Drywalls are to fine a thread to bite into MFC. I tend to drill 4mm clearance and countersink, and in 15mm board would drill a 3mm pilot in the edge of the second board.

Jason

 

[Scrit]

When you talk about the black carcass screws - are these the same as black drywall screws? The reason I ask is when I was in wickes they only had tubs of black drywall screws and none labelled as carcass screws.

No, not the same at all. Drywall screws tend to crack the surface of MFC when you flush them under and they are prone to shearing in MFC because the shanks are too thin. Carcass screws are very specific and you may need to go to a proper ironmongers to get them, but you just pop a start point with a n awl then screw them in flush and they seem to work well that way. Assuming that you can't get any, however, Screwfix sell Spax and Reissers and B&Q do Spax - not as good because you should pilot them first, but they will hold MFC well and they're bl**dy good screws.

Not sure what you mean by 'mod' blocks - I assume you mean the little lego-brick style thingy, if so - thats what I thought the cabs were hung with (as my mum's kitchen has those - but that is about 20 years old now).

I thought you meant these:

and wondered why you were talking about them

The wall is solid, it's the dividing wall between me and the neighbours.

In thet case the standard wall plates, like these, will do the job:

If your wall does turn out to be a bit ropey, pop-in two screws. I always hand cabs on 65mm or longer screws as they have better pull-out resistance

Scrit

 

[Ratter]

I have really enjoyed this thread, which has confirmed lots of things I wasn't quite sure of and given me lots of new ideas.

I now have a couple of questions of my own.

I have one long wall in my kitchen which is very rough as it was once the outside wall with various lean to's attached (before my time). I am just about ready to put the stud wall back up having sorted the plumbing nightmare behind it.

I was intending to add some horizontal studding at the right height to hang the wall cupboards - probably 4 x 2 rather than 2 x 2 to give a bit of latitude. The problem is estimating the fixing height as the cabinets I'm thinking of using are a B & Q delivered only type. A further complication is that my wife wants some tall cabinets which come right down to the worktop at either end of the run, which effectively removes any adjustment later. Maybe somebody has some B & Q Select range and knows the fixing height - I've measured the fixing centre inside the cabinet on the display in the shop but it looks like the wallplate fixing needs to be a little lower than this from the evidence of Scrit's picture.

I'm also think about cabinet lights - presumably these are usually wired to a lighting circuit, but how is the wiring usually brought down to under cabinet level? And what sort of terminals are usually provided?

 

[engineer one]

can't say anything about the heights of the specific units, what you need to think though is how far below the top of a unit is the fixing going to be, probably about thickness of the mfc, say 15mm plus half approx the height of the fixing, but as scrit says these have horizontal as well as vertical adjustment, so measure to the centre of the horizontal hole, add this to the thickness, and this is your basic distance give or take the odd movement when drilling.

as for the lighting, use the low voltage tubes, or newer energy saving fixtures which are fixed below the pelmet under your upper cabinets, and the lead from the transformer just goes to the normal plug, generally clipped along the pelmet, and then you go down to the socket. do not suggest that you hide the sockets in a cupboard for safety's sake.

generally these lights are switchable at each bulb point to save power, although i guess you could switch on at the plug too. given the shadows produced by the upper cabs, low power lights give a really good light.

in a b&q they are along side the normal tubes, but shorter and have a plugable range which can build up along your run of cabinets.

paul :wink:

 

[Scrit]

I was intending to add some horizontal studding at the right height to hang the wall cupboards - probably 4 x 2 rather than 2 x 2 to give a bit of latitude. The problem is estimating the fixing height as the cabinets I'm thinking of using are a B & Q delivered only type.

It isn't strictly necessary. You could always notch-out the sides of the cabs at the back and hang the cabs on 2.5m long rails like these as opposed to the small hanging brackets normally supplied:

These are Woodfit's BC254, but there are other suppliers out there. Because these are long rails you can simply fix through the plasterboard into the studs wherever the studs are and use a few Redidrivas or compression fittings to tie the ends of the rails in to the wall.

A further complication is that my wife wants some tall cabinets which come right down to the worktop at either end of the run, which effectively removes any adjustment later. Maybe somebody has some B & Q Select range and knows the fixing height - I've measured the fixing centre inside the cabinet on the display in the shop but it looks like the wallplate fixing needs to be a little lower than this from the evidence of Scrit's picture.

The drilling centres of the rails are something like 40mm to 50mm below the tops of the cabs, although with the long rails you don't need to do the extra work of putting in noggins and reboarding.

I'm also think about cabinet lights - presumably these are usually wired to a lighting circuit, but how is the wiring usually brought down to under cabinet level? And what sort of terminals are usually provided?

Almost all the lighting is low voltage with a transformer. Each transformer can handle two lights easily, so the transformers are "daisy chained" and fixed to the tops of the cabs and the cables to to lights just drop down behind the cabs - there is actually a narrow gap between the cab back and the wall where you can feed them through. The cornice mouldings hide this from view. The spark normally takes mains power from a high-level socket (the socket provided to power the extractor fan) to a covered junction box then drops a live cable down behind a cab to a low-profile surface mounted back box and switch plate which is screwed underneath one of the cabs. From that another cable goes back up to the transformers mounted on top of one or more of the cabs. The switch nestles behind the ligh pelmet so it isn't seen. If you haven't got a high level switched outlet to power the extractor, then you need one. :wink:

generally these lights are switchable at each bulb point to save power, although i guess you could switch on at the plug too. given the shadows produced by the upper cabs, low power lights give a really good light.

I think you're thinking about the older flourescent tube type fittings, Paul. A lot of the newer dichroics and LEDs don't have individual switches on them at all. In any case I think it's always better to be able to douse a run of lights from a single switch rather than have to reach up and fumble around under the pelmet for each switch

Scrit

 

[engineer one]

touche scrit, just thinking energy saving :? :lol:

paul :wink:

 

[Scrit]

I didn't think that LEDs used that much power. The dichroics must do, though, they always seem to run red hot

Scrit

 

[Ratter]

You could always notch-out the sides of the cabs at the back and hang the cabs on 2.5m long rails like these as opposed to the small hanging brackets normally supplied

That's a very good idea and it'll be easier to get the run level if they are all mounted to the same rail.

Almost all the lighting is low voltage with a transformer.
If you haven't got a high level switched outlet to power the extractor, then you need one.

Don't transformers = wasted power even when turned off?

My extractor will be on a different wall, so it seems to me just as easy to have a single switch at worktop level to turn the whole run and take the supply from the lighting circuit to a junction box near the first transformer - then there is no plug and socket to hide.

But lots of useful information - as usual

generally these lights are switchable at each bulb point to save power, although i guess you could switch on at the plug too. given the shadows produced by the upper cabs, low power lights give a really good light.

We have individually switchable ones now - to my knowledge the only time anybody has turned them off was when one started flickering!

I can't get these wretched quotes to work properly

 

[Scrit]

Almost all the lighting is low voltage with a transformer.
If you haven't got a high level switched outlet to power the extractor, then you need one.

Don't transformers = wasted power even when turned off?

Only if the power to the circuit is still on. That's why I have mine running through a circuit isolation switch, but 12volt in an environment where there is water is surely a bit safer than mains voltage. As I said, though, many 12 volt lights don't have individual light switches, some strip fittings don't have them either, so a circuit isolator is a necessary safety feature.

I can't get these wretched quotes to work properly

Take the space between the "quote" and "=" out..... :wink:

Scrit

 

[Ratter]

Take the space between the "quote" and "=" out.....

Cracked it :!:

 

[jasonB]

B&Q Select do both 720 & 900 wall cabs so your overall height will be determined by which you go for. If using 720's then the top of the wall cabs will be the same as a larder/tall oven housing @ 2070mm or if you go with the 900's then it will be 2250mm, they do dresser units to suit both heights.

Screw holes for plates will be approx 60mm below cab tops.

I always have cabinet lighting switched from a light switch which usually means having a 2gang switch, this switches a FCU above the cabs with flex to the transformers or mains strip lights.

Jason

 

[Ratter]

they do dresser units to suit both heights.

Yes, that's the set up she wants. I reckon with the 900mm ones, you can put what you like above them and nobody will ever see it from ground level, but electrical services can easily be accessed if needed.

Screw holes for plates will be approx 60mm below cab tops.

That's exactly what I reckoned

Does anybody know why plinths are so big these days? My existing units are handmade and well past their best but they are over 800mm high, so I'll be losing about 8cm / 3" in height. Not so far to bend down though.

Jason