Khan's ULEZ scam >road charging

[Jacob]

Not what it says here, and everybody I know who travels in London says it is much less congested. Not surprising really.

"Since launching in 2003, the Congestion Charge has significantly reduced traffic congestion and harmful emissions in London, paving the way for sustainable transportation and a greener, healthier future.17 Feb 2023"

https://www.intelligenttransport.co...in 2003, the,and a greener, healthier future.
Three charges apparently Pay to drive in London

If you google it seems that congestion charges certainly have worked, in spite of the doubts expressed in this thread.
It may not seem like it on any particular day but it seems it could have been a lot worse.
Some of the space created has been filled by taxis and other service vehicles apparently, which presumably is a positive result - or if not then there is scope for more action
Many links say the same sort of thing as these. They tend to be more reliable than the typical "angry bloke in the pub"!

https://theconversation.com/london-congestion-charge-what-worked-what-didnt-what-next-92478https://www.oecd.org/climate-action...n-charge-and-its-low-emission-zones-c6cd48e9/

 

[J-G]

The victorian era ended in 1914

Victoria died in 1901 !! By 1914 even the 'Edwardian' Era had past, Edward VII died in 1910.

 

[deema]

I think the answer is simple, we can all have different views and live harmoniously. Those who think we should not pollute, and the answer is a bicycle should be allowed to live by their convictions. If there is a fire in their house, the fire brigade should arrive by hand cart or horse, the same applies if they need an ambulance or indeed the police. If nothing else we won’t have to listen to such dribble any more as they won’t be around to provide such diatribe. They will have circome To their convictions.
I was interested to listen to the founder of green peace state that climate warming due to human activity was tosh!

 

[Agent_zed]

Victoria died in 1901 !! By 1914 even the 'Edwardian' Era had past, Edward VII died in 1910.

a google search gave me this for my numbers...

'Victorian era, in British history, the period between approximately 1820 and 1914, corresponding roughly but not exactly to the period of Queen Victoria's reign (1837–1901) ' from Victorian era | History, Society, & Culture

so best case it's 109 years by the above and worst 122 years.

 

[Jacob]

I......
I was interested to listen to the founder of green peace state that climate warming due to human activity was tosh!

He's a raving nutter apparently, and wasn't the founder of Greenpeace.
https://www.desmog.com/patrick-moore/

 

[Agent_zed]

I think the answer is simple, we can all have different views and live harmoniously. Those who think we should not pollute, and the answer is a bicycle should be allowed to live by their convictions. If there is a fire in their house, the fire brigade should arrive by hand cart or horse, the same applies if they need an ambulance or indeed the police. If nothing else we won’t have to listen to such dribble any more as they won’t be around to provide such diatribe. They will have circome To their convictions.
I was interested to listen to the founder of green peace state that climate warming due to human activity was tosh!

that is just nonsense. I don't drink alcohol but I don't think that someone who gets drunk and needs medical attention should be treated by a drunk surgeon.

Also as i stated previously whether climate change is due to human activity or not has nothing to do with air pollution effects. You can not believe in climate change but its quite clear to see the effects of pollution all around us. You buy car tyres with 6/7mm of tread and get rid of them with 1.6mm of tread. All that 'rubber' goes somewhere! Your brake pads start off around 15mm and get changed at 3mm. All that 'whatever it is' goes somewhere. You put 60 litres of fuel in your car at the begining of the week and it's empty at the end.... climate change or not, that is undisputible.

 

[J-G]

a google search gave me this for my numbers...

'Victorian era, in British history, the period between approximately 1820 and 1914, corresponding roughly but not exactly to the period of Queen Victoria's reign (1837–1901) ' from Victorian era | History, Society, & Culture

so best case it's 109 years by the above and worst 122 years.

Not for the first time have I found Encycopædia Britanica to be in error!!! It's is quite stupid to assign different dates to historic periods - what does Britanica say about the 'Regency' period - I won't view Britanica's page since it demands cookies which take too long to reject.

 

[deema]

that is just nonsense. I don't drink alcohol but I don't think that someone who gets drunk and needs medical attention should be treated by a drunk surgeon.

Also as i stated previously whether climate change is due to human activity or not has nothing to do with air pollution effects. You can not believe in climate change but its quite clear to see the effects of pollution all around us. You buy car tyres with 6/7mm of tread and get rid of them with 1.6mm of tread. All that 'rubber' goes somewhere! Your brake pads start off around 15mm and get changed at 3mm. All that 'whatever it is' goes somewhere. You put 60 litres of fuel in your car at the begining of the week and it's empty at the end.... climate change or not, that is undisputible.

Live by your convictions. It’s simple, stop heating your home, don’t buy anything made from oil, and don’t expect any assistance from anything powered or derived from carbon producing systems.
Human life expectancy will collapse, economically the country will be crippled, billions will starve to death. Apart from that, you will have ‘pure air’ for the limited life expectancy you will have. I’m just calling out the hypocrisy of the preposition.

 

[Jacob]

...
Human life expectancy will collapse, economically the country will be crippled, billions will starve to death. ....

Correct. That is, if we don't do anything about climate change.
CC is already happening around the globe and the steady increase in migration is one of the obvious symptoms.
A lot of people are on the move. It may be our turn eventually. Maybe we'll stay here in Derbyshire as we drift towards a new stone age - plenty of caves but no flints. There'll be lots of scrap metal however! Plenty of material for sharp instruments. Sharpening will become necessary for survival - start practicing now!

 

[deema]

Correct. That is, if we don't do something about climate change. CC is already happening around the globe and the steady increase in migration is one of the obvious symptoms. A lot of people are on the move. It may be our turn eventually!

Taking us back to the dark ages, awesome! Life expectancy back to 30 if you’re lucky! No issue with your convictions, just live by them. Stop being an armchair philosopher and actually do what you say. Stop telling everyone else what to do whilst not living by your own perspective; that’s just pure hypocritical.

 

[Agent_zed]

Live by your convictions. It’s simple, stop heating your home, don’t buy anything made from oil, and don’t expect any assistance from anything powered or derived from carbon producing systems.
Human life expectancy will collapse, economically the country will be crippled, billions will starve to death. Apart from that, you will have ‘pure air’ for the limited life expectancy you will have. I’m just calling out the hypocrisy of the preposition.

that's the entire point you are missing though. You don't need to not heat your home if homes become insulated enough not to need huge amounts of energy input and/or use biogas/sustainable energy. You have been fed decades of propoganda by the oil companies who want you to believe there is no alternative. You seem to have taken the stance that human innovation has stopped with fossil fuels. Thats as good as it gets, no need for change now or to find alternatives. Transport is as good as it gets because we now have bluetooth radios and cabin filters to take out the worst of the air pollution from the car in front in the traffic jam.

In 2022 26.8% of the UK's electricity was from wind alone. That is a whole lot of sustainable energy. but perhaps we should have just relied on russian oil/gas?

Taking us back to the dark ages, awesome! Life expectancy back to 30 if you’re lucky!

What do you think is going to happen when our rivers are all dead from the sewage outflows and the farmland is denuded from poor agricultural practice and can't grow enough crops and antibiotic resistance means we can't cure people. Are you going to live by your convictions?

A smart person would see the problem and innovate and adapt. The only reason you are told these problems shouldn't be fixed is that shareholders want their dividends and are scared if they change anything that might not happen. That moron Trump keeps going on about 'wind mills' giving everyone cancer?! But the oil industry full of known carcinogens is great, apparently! Could it possibly be that people have a vested interest in certain ventures?

And sure there will be some level of hypocrisy but better doing something than just watching it all burn and claiming it isn't burning your toes. It will come for everyone eventually.

 

[deema]

What exactly made the insulation for the homes you suggest? Have you any idea of the crop yield achievable without pesticides and oil based fertilisers? what are windmills, solar panels made from and how are those products made? Look around your home, and how you exist, nothing, and I mean nothing isn’t a derivative that hasn’t been produced by producing CO2 or from oil.
If we go back to the dark ages, they burned wood and coal creating CO2 and other derivatives. Leather to keep them warm produced by farting herbivores creating methane. Primitive agriculture achieved through deforestation.
I have no issue with any views or ideology. I just ask you to think really carefully what you are asking for and simply, without any criticism of your views or convictions, make a positive step forward and live by them. I attribute the philosophy of shouting very loudly and doing nothing yourself as simply another manifestation of the old proverb, empty vessels make most noise.

 

[mwinfrance]

“We find that the bulk of financial losses associated with rotten, polluting assets is borne by the wealthy,” said the co-author Lucas Chancel, a professor of economics at Sciences Po in Paris. “Only a small share of financial losses is borne by the working and middle class because they have no or relatively little financial wealth.”

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jun/22/fossil-fuel-assets-loss-study
deema said ..

Look around your home, and how you exist, nothing, and I mean nothing isn’t a derivative that hasn’t been produced by producing CO2 or from oil.

So..according to you..when the oil runs out ( finite ressource ) civilisation collapses.

ps..I'm looking at a lot of wood when i look around my home..didn't come from oil..actually was made by sequestering CO2..not by producing CO2..

 

[deema]

“We find that the bulk of financial losses associated with rotten, polluting assets is borne by the wealthy,” said the co-author Lucas Chancel, a professor of economics at Sciences Po in Paris. “Only a small share of financial losses is borne by the working and middle class because they have no or relatively little financial wealth.”

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jun/22/fossil-fuel-assets-loss-study
deema said ..

So..according to you..when the oil runs out ( finite ressource ) civilisation collapses.

ps..I'm looking at a lot of wood when i look around my home..didn't come from oil..actually was made by sequestering CO2..not by producing CO2..

Wow, I mean wow. Let’s have a think for a nano second! Take away everything you have that’s oil based or derived. Now, let’s see how long you can actually survive. We are taking weeks, not years. Nothing we grow, nothing you wear, nothing to provide you with shelter. Yep, pure Eden, I love reports such as this that ignore the most basic concepts of human existence.
I truly believe in freedom of choice, if you chose to live this way, that’s perfectly acceptable, but, depravity, hunger and cold are not bedfellows anyone with a modicum of self preservation or humanity would wish on their worst enemy.

 

[mwinfrance]

I grew up with no electricity, nor running water.In a house my grandfather built with his own hands by the time he was 23 , he had no power tools , no internal combustion engine car etc..He had a farm, horses, horse drawn ploughs, ponies and traps, cows, sheep, ducks and chickens..he raised 5 kids in that house.No artificial fertiliser on the fields in his farm..organic before there was such a thing. He lived to be 76 had he not smoked a pipe he might well have lived longer.his eldest son, my dad, thought like you.He died at 58, ( massive cancer all through his spine spread into his organs ) he had believed it when his "betters" told him that all he needed to do was close his eyes and turn his back when they tested an A bomb in the Aussie desert .

You remind me a lot of him and his "arguments" against life how he had been brought up.He was not a happy man as an adult, but I was told he had been a happy child, until he came into contact with life "over the water" in the UK and all the things that he had to have, and could never afford all of them, so was frustrated.

I can almost hear the "get their hair cut" in your posts,"put the bras back on those girls"..all the things that seem to wind up the climate change deniers and the anti-ecologists.there was always a strong thread of jealousy in his "bloody hippies", .they always seemed to be too happy to him, the girls were too pretty, there was too much sharing of food and resources.Sad and bitter.He was anti-immigrant too, despite being one to the UK, but he didn't count because he was white.

My grandfather taught me how to build, grow food, light fires , cut trees, all the practical stuff.if civilisation stopped tomorrow, i could carry on, as could my family.. the long term effects of your "freedom of choice" for you ( and millions others ) to continue living your way..Is that billions of others would find themselves living in misery, because you and those who think and live like you had ruined the planet.you are entering a period of massive drought, food plants need water..enjoy eating your oil.

 

[deema]

I grew up with no electricity, nor running water.In a house my grandfather built with his own hands by the time he was 23 , he had no power tools , no internal combustion engine car etc..He had a farm, horses, horse drawn ploughs, ponies and traps, cows, sheep, ducks and chickens..he raised 5 kids in that house.No artificial fertiliser on the fields in his farm..organic before there was such a thing. He lived to be 76 had he not smoked a pipe he might well have lived longer.his eldest son, my dad, thought like you.He died at 58, ( massive cancer all through his spine spread into his organs ) he had believed it when his "betters" told him that all he needed to do was close his eyes and turn his back when they tested an A bomb in the Aussie desert .

You remind me a lot of him and his "arguments" against life how he had been brought up.He was not a happy man as an adult, but I was told he had been a happy child, until he came into contact with life "over the water" in the UK and all the things that he had to have, and could never afford all of them, so was frustrated.

I can almost hear the "get their hair cut" in your posts,"put the bras back on those girls"..all the things that seem to wind up the climate change deniers and the anti-ecologists.there was always a strong thread of jealousy in his "bloody hippies", .they always seemed to be too happy to him, the girls were too pretty, there was too much sharing of food and resources.Sad and bitter.He was anti-immigrant too, despite being one to the UK, but he didn't count because he was white.

My grandfather taught me how to build, grow food, light fires , cut trees, all the practical stuff.if civilisation stopped tomorrow, i could carry on, as could my family.. the long term effects of your "freedom of choice" for you ( and millions others ) to continue living your way..Is that billions of others would find themselves living in misery, because you and those who think and live like you had ruined the planet.you are entering a period of massive drought, food plants need water..enjoy eating your oil.

Subsistence farming, it works, you need a certain amount of land, now multiply that amount of land by the world population we have today …..oh dear, we don’t have enough fertile soil to support everyone and that’s after we have cut down every tree! So who decided who died of starvation“ I have no issue with your perspective, you are free to live by your convictions. Please, feel free to go back to substance farming techniques, not to call upon modern medicines, or healthcare of any form. Anything metal, plastic, or manufactured in any way that creates carbon removed from your world. If you look back on your grandfathers existence I am certain that he made use of lots of things derived from fossil fuels. Coal for the steel for the plough, bridals or hand tools form instance. Let’s not mention the cows he had, producers of methane which is a far more toxic global warming gas than CO2. After all, it was the Romans that invented concrete, one of the devils brews that the environmentalists would like banned.

PS. I forgot to add, that you and your family might if you take up your convictions truly understand why most of Africa is trying to migrate to Europe. Substance farming isn’t a very healthy long livid or enjoyable life.

PPS. You can also abandon your bike, that has rubber tyres just like cars, and a frame and components made from metal produced by……..

 

[mwinfrance]

Actually the formulation of the Roman's concrete was better and less polluting that the modern formulation. the problem is not with the creation of CO2 ( I'm presuming that was what you meant when you wrote "manufactured in any way that creates carbon removed from your world" ) it is with the huge imbalance in the creation of CO2 in relation to the natural world's ability to absorb it. That imbalance is what has led to the surplus in the atmosphere and the accelerating warming effects and thus the accelerating climate change. Had some reductions been made decades ago we would not have the current position where drastic reductions are necessary.
Continuing the way we are is merely again pushing the problems further into the future for the next generation to suffer the consequences.depending on your age, you may yet live to see the accelerated effects.

They have begun..as I said drought and extreme weather is destroying crops and lowering yields ( despite the fertilisers ) ..in fact they are now producing lower yields than non artificial fertiliser methods, insecticides are killing the bees need to pollinate the plants that we need ..all over the planet now.It will only get worse.
As will all the other effects, they are happening now.They are getting stronger, more severe, but not in a stable pattern that allows us to mitigate against them.
Your way is to say..you don't believe it is going to affect you..so you don't care.

Your grandchildren and children will not be thanking you in another 10 years or so if you are still alive.

 

[deema]

Live and let live, the freedom of thought and speech is imperative. I truly would like to hear your view if you are ever unfortunately to fall severely ill and need modern medicines to survive. I will applaud your virtue when you decline the gas guzzling ambulance and modern medicine administered within a hospital built of concrete. I’m sure you will be considering the imbalance of CO2 produced versus the worlds ability to absorb it at this time in your life. Your children and grandchildren will thank you for it.

 

[deema]

@mwinfrance May I remind you if your recent contribution on a different thread:

I have had many powerfull motorcycles and cars..and have pushed them hard and fast..to the pont where my mates when I had bikes would not ride pillion with me as they considered I was waaay too crazy.

Is it just me that sees a dichotomy in your ideology and lifestyle?

 

[mwinfrance]

Live and let live, the freedom of thought and speech is imperative. I truly would like to hear your view if you are ever unfortunately to fall severely ill and need modern medicines to survive. I will applaud your virtue when you decline the gas guzzling ambulance and modern medicine administered within a hospital built of concrete. I’m sure you will be considering the imbalance of CO2 produced versus the worlds ability to absorb it at this time in your life. Your children and grandchildren will thank you for it.

First 20 years here I did not have medical cover..( despite paying in ) so when ill ( and I have been severely ill ) had no options but to deal with illness the old way..example..removed over 10 of my teeth myself, ( they were loose, damaged by bike accident years before, and then banjaxed by a french dentist to whom I paid cash and who didn't do the work properly ) so, I had to deal with it later , no anesthetic. Reset my own bones, and dislocated shoulder, sewn my own wounds ( had to do "sew myself" once in the UK too, ambo dropped me off as "walking wounded" ( after a motorbike accident where someone drove into me ) at a hospital that was in the middle of moving. No casualty doctors, ( they'd all gone to the new hospital, the one I was at was supposed to be closed..my ambo came to my "accident' from another county, so the crew didn't know ) I was leaking claret profusely , asked for thread and needle and someone to hold a mirror for me ( very bad surface wound to chin ) ..nurse obliged after argument..I did a neat job ( no anesthetic ) ..nevertheless I have a beard ever since, kept catching the scar when shaving.

Grandfather taught me to be resilient..doctors were few and far between and expensive in Ireland. He had all his teeth removed in acouple of goes go ( they were healthy , but "just in case" ) by a farrier when he was in his late 20s..No anesthetic, just a whiskey soaked rope to bite on and some family to hold him down.

5cm wound to edge of jaw bone bleeds a lot ( skin is stretched at that point ) but looks worse than it is..had much worse.

Humans are very resilient..it helps if you are also a trained paramedic..with an extensive education in biology and chemistry..even if you then having got the degrees ,go into artwork ( and get some more arty ones) instead.