keyless car theft

[DrPhill]

I am not sure that it is just 'luddite unions' safeguarding their jobs. Maybe I am wrong, but I am not sure if the general public are ready for driverless trains. I would like to see some survey results.

I can believe that, under normal circumstances, a simple controlled environment like rail, and especially the London Underground (I believe that it is made of several independent segments) could be made safe and efficient by fully automated software. What would worry me is all the 'edge cases' that are not forseen and how the automated system can be made robust against all possibilities. Humans are not 'robust against all possibilities' but they can show remarkable flexibility when faced with new or challenging circumstances, and this may make the difference between life and death at times.

TFL really ought to use the Underground as an experimental laboratory for automation. We could learn a great deal and that knowledge could really help in the automated car development. But to start with cars (the hardest problem in automated transport) seems absurdly optimistic/unrealistic to me.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I did read somewhere a few days ago that a pilot told someone that in a few years time the cockpit of a plane would have a man and a dog in it - the man to reassure the passengers that a human was in charge, and a dog to bite the man if he touched anything.

 

[yeti]

Hopefully we're a while off having an OEM allow OTA updates to things like the powertrain module, therefore requiring a visit to service for applying any updates.. but things like the radio, navigation, are all fair game I guess. You can even buy cars today that provide a "WiFi HotSpot" to the cabin occupants. This basically means the car has a modem inside it (mobile comms, 4G etc.), so they've laid the foundations already and shall just build on top of it..

 

[sickasapike]

Sam Harris goes into this a fair bit, can't remember if in his podcasts or books, they're all audio when i consume them - the harsh reality is that in the end some algorythm really will have to decide between the bus queue and the approaching car in the wrong lane, in a few milliseconds too.

Putting the morality of whose fault is it aside, one thing I find interesting is that once this critical code gets reasonably good at making those decisions they would arguably make a better one than the human, in the bus queue/oncoming car situation, the human may well go for the bus queue - they're softer than oncoming cars, the computer might decide that the head on crash is safer overall, which the human I think probably wouldn't be able to, self-preservation and all that.

The best decision in terms of humans damaged might be to head directly for the telegraph pole instead, so the driver is the only casualty (but is almost certainly toast) - no human would make that choice surely - they might say so over a cup of coffee but in the heat of the moment, naa...

So... surely we can't have the human car buyer reading reviews and specifications and deciding on a car because the manufacturer advertises 'we'll always go fo the bus queue, to keep you safe' - there has to be some kind of detached morality working here - all the cars need to use the same rules surely ?

 

[sickasapike]

I did read somewhere a few days ago that a pilot told someone that in a few years time the cockpit of a plane would have a man and a dog in it - the man to reassure the passengers that a human was in charge, and a dog to bite the man if he touched anything.

Similar to a classic old IT industry joke I heard when I was a trainee at ICL in the late 1970's (when an automated coffee machine and colour screens were pretty splashy !);

In the future, the world will be run by a computer, a human and a dog.

The computer will run every aspect of the world.
The human will feed the dog.
The dog will stop the human touching the computer.

I think in the day it was 'a man', and scans better like that perhaps - but in these more enlightened times, one must admit that women are just as competent at feeding dogs as men, perhaps more so.

 

[woodenstx]

IMHo, "driverless cars" will only work if they are kept in their own area of the road/towns/cities.
Human nature (except for the Japanese, because they all seem to follow the rules and think us western folk are mental), means we will always fight the system/do something to annoy it.

e.g. if we know that a driverless car will avoid an accident, then pulling out a sideroad becomes a game where the one entering the flow will just pull out on the automated car, rather than wait for a bigger space. There are more cases like this where we would challenege the system.

Put the automation into its own controlled domain and most of these weird fringe cases (kill the driver or the bus queue) start to vanish... almost like the railway examples.

Agreed that OTA updates of safetycritical systems is hugely unlikely to happen. You just cant risk it.

/automotive and rail systems engineer (played with missiles too but they were boring) :lol:

 

[morfa]

I've seen a few suggestions where people suggest that driverless cars have their own areas/roads. Or travel around in little convoys and the like. Why not just go a step further and put them on some form of guides. Tracks maybe? If you're going to put them in convoys, why not just link them together? Then to save on building lots of engines, why not just put a powerful on at the front or back? Then have central places to pick up and drop off people? Maybe in the middle of all the towns in the country. Or ideally have one in every village. Local ones feeding into larger national ones. If you're going a long way, why not put beds and a restaurant on them as well?

Seems like a bit much to me. Bit radical. No one would have ever come up with such a crackpot system before have they? No one would ever build something like that, then destroy half of it while not funding the rest of it properly would they? That'd be really nuts...

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Funny how there isn't a national railway system anywhere in the world that makes money, isn't it? The last time I went on a train (six years ago) it cost me £250 for a return to London - and I had to stand all the way back - and they still are not economic.

 

[sickasapike]

Ie.g. if we know that a driverless car will avoid an accident, then pulling out a sideroad becomes a game where the one entering the flow will just pull out on the automated car, rather than wait for a bigger space. There are more cases like this where we would challenege the system.

Interesting point, though I'd hope the systems would have some kind of common fundamental numbers/equations about what gap/speed compared to vehicle size/conditions is safe to pull out into, with an X% safety margin, and ideally limited by the capabilities of the other vehicles in the equation... hmm, so they need to know what sort of vehicles are close, braking speeds and the like, not just where and how fast they are.

 

[woodenstx]

Ie.g. if we know that a driverless car will avoid an accident, then pulling out a sideroad becomes a game where the one entering the flow will just pull out on the automated car, rather than wait for a bigger space. There are more cases like this where we would challenege the system.

Interesting point, though I'd hope the systems would have some kind of common fundamental numbers/equations about what gap/speed compared to vehicle size/conditions is safe to pull out into, with an X% safety margin, and ideally limited by the capabilities of the other vehicles in the equation... hmm, so they need to know what sort of vehicles are close, braking speeds and the like, not just where and how fast they are.

I mean the case where you are in your 1970's carbed car waiting to pull out of a side street, you see an automated car in the line of flow and just pull out as you know full well that will avoid you (as opposed to someone else in the 1970's car who "might not").

Its either segregation until total immersion in the technology, or on NYE one year thats it automated cars only.
OR we as a species stops messing about trying to break "the system" :lol:

 

[sickasapike]

I mean the case where you are in your 1970's carbed car

Sorry yes, missed that - got you, and the manual driver might not be able to tell if the human is driving the other one. at least in the period where there's a human in the driving seat anyway; so have to decide which likely response time they are betting on !

I just sold my car, supercharged 4L Jag, and don't expect to buy anything nearly so 'nice' again, and kinda hope I'll not need to buy another. I used to love zooming around, even commuting, but driving has become a lot less fun and a lot pricier than it used to be, too much traffic, parking nightmares, youthful lunatics in cardboard boxes driving like their tin foil brakes would actually stop them in time and all the rest.

I'm in the 'bring it on' camp, can't wait to get into a communal car that drove itself to me and say goodbye to it at the pub, and another rocks up and drives my doddering form home; but fear I'll not be around by the time that lot is working smoothly ! - as somebody said somewhere, when we invented the car, we didn't stop riding horses for fun; I imagine track days will be very popular when the roads start being 'no manual drivers' !

 

[woodenstx]

Sadly we are already seeing the cost of track days increase lots as the NIMBYS move near a race track and then find out its noisy because thats what it does When it becomes the only outlet for this kinda thing the cost will be so prohibative it'll be like horse riding now :lol:

I'm somewhat 50/50 on it. I love the concept and the nerdyness, but at the same time feel that cars peaked around the mid 2000's when they were reliable, quick, and still maintaned that the driver was in control. Unlike now where everything has "auto" this that the the other. Driving used to be a skill.

/rant off

 

[mailee]

Step in put seat belt on and insert the key to be confronted with a voice stating "Welcome to Microsoft auto pilot, where would you like to crash today"? Thank God I'll be six foot under by the time it really takes off! :roll:

 

[yeti]

Yes, an automated car must assume the lowest priority when moving on the highway.. and pedestrians will soon learn to take advantage of that too..

 

[Losos]

The security in everything from new cars to network-enabled kids toys is pretty appalling - too often it's a design afterthought rather than built into the core of the thing, who needs security on a prototype, but there's never time/budget to put it in properly later unless you're forced to.

I do IT in real life, well, sometimes

As someone who does IT in real life what do you think about all the 'talking heads' who appear on TV etc. whenever there is a major 'hacking' scandal.

Maybe I'm old but I get the distinct impression that the 'good guys' are loosing the battle against the hackers and every day that passes makes me more nervous about where my personal data is stored and how secure it is.

Like everyone I have to use 'on line' ordering sometimes, and obviously I have to provide C/card details on telephone orders but I'm treated like some ***** if I dare to ask "Where is this data I've just given you stored ?" or maybe "What security is present on your office where you are sitting ?" meaning is it possible to get in without a card key type thing, is there anything to stop people tail gaiting you.

There's a lot to be said for walking in a store, picking up the item you want, going to the till and handing over the folding stuff. They don't know you, where you live, your telephone number etc. and you don't know the same about them. Great :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[heimlaga]

Very soon there will be a time when there isn't a single car thief around who is competent to steal or even drive my 1984 model Opel Kadett 8)

I have found that already now I must explain in detail how to to pull the choke button 3/4 of the way and give it a wee bit of throttle before starting when somone else is to drive it............... otherwise they say it is broken and doesn't start......

 

[Phil Pascoe]

My friend forty years ago thief proofed his car by taking the electrical supply to the fuel pump back under the driver's seat and putting a switch there. I had a Mini van that was easy to thief proof - the gear stick used to come off so I could take it with me.