Keir Starmer

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That's the big bonus of being in EU. Disputes between neighbours (UK and Ireland) suddenly become less meaningful when they are both under the jurisdiction of bigger entity, but on equal terms.
Orange marches could just become quaint cultural relics with everybody joining in the fun! Or would that be out of the question?
Brexit was the most stupid thing the tories could possibly have done.
I know you like to blame the Tories for most things, and I agree the vote was stupid, but it was the general population that voted for it and many think it was to keep migrants out (that went well). Is your point that you can't trust the UK population to demand facts on which to make a rational decision? :rolleyes:
 
I know you like to blame the Tories for most things, and I agree the vote was stupid, but it was the general population that voted for it and many think it was to keep migrants out (that went well).
The did not vote for it. They voted in favour of it but clearly dependent on the terms obtained, when the general common-sense but unspoken assumption was that they would only then vote for or against it, or Parliament just reject it as a lost cause.
Nobody voted for Johnson going head-down brain-off and "just getting brexit done" really badly.
Is your point that you can't trust the UK population to demand facts on which to make a rational decision? :rolleyes:
No my point is that we don't rule by plebiscite and the decision should have been left for Parliament to make, following the negotiations.
Only an idi ot would agree to an extremely important and complicated contract with details unknown and undecided. We found our idi ot in Johnson, backed up by tory back bench id iot majority just seeing it as a vote winner. Plus a few `Labour loose cannons!
 
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Orange marches could just become quaint cultural relics with everybody joining in the fun! Or would that be out of the question? :unsure:

Eek! Careful - it's over 300 years already - and that time has done little to diminish the raw emotion that these provoke...

Brexit was the most stupid thing the tories could possibly have done.

This is from a very, very long and epic list of stupid things that the Tories did, but I agree 100% :cry:
 
To be specific, a border poll would only be called by the NI SoS if it appears likely that there will be a majority in favour of a UI from the NI electorate. It will involve all the electorate on the island of Ireland. The GFA referendum was a North and South vote. And yep, London can't impose anything.

As for this:
I’m sure Starmer’s crew could find a way to give NI away, after all it’s only part of an island and they managed to give away a whole island group just a few days ago.
 
I’m sure Starmer’s crew could find a way to give NI away, after all it’s only part of an island and they managed to give away a whole island group just a few days ago.
He can't.
 
LOL, I hadn't heard that one before, probably the same as "trust me" or "honestly"... (although it might be also be true to say that distrusting someone who uses "fact" would indicate more about the reader than the writer?)

Anyway, back to the topic:

Honestly, you gotta trust me on this - Home Office have no powers to instruct Police on Operational matters. fact.

And if you don't trust me, just look it up for yourselves:

Google "Home Office power over police UK", or "Does the government control the police UK".

Answers will clearly show that police operations are independent of government and that the home office has no power over police operations...
Not quite as clear cut as you imagine. No one can even be considered for appointment in any chief officer rank without having completed various training etc at the college of policing.
Who is responsible for appointing all the executives of the college, that would be the Home Secretary, who is the boss of that organisation. As such she or he has a very real influence in shaping policing at all levels.
So there is effectively an approved list of those who can apply for such posts, controlled by an organisation run by the Home Secretary. If your name isn't on that list you cannot even apply for such a post.
The Home Secretary also directs the policing priorities of police forces, and can impose meaningful sanctions on any Chief Constable or force that doesn't comply with his or her wishes.
I think it would be hard to argue that dictating what areas of crime the police have to prioritise does not have a very real impact on operational policing.
So if we are talking about day to day issues, what officer patrols what area etc, then you are right.
But the bigger and more important the issues become the greater the influence of the Home Secretary.
To believe otherwise is very naive.
 
I’m sure Starmer’s crew could find a way to give NI away, after all it’s only part of an island and they managed to give away a whole island group just a few days ago.
Wasn’t that actually Starmers crew finishing what the previous government started after the UN said they belonged to Mauritius?
 
Only an idi ot would agree to an extremely important and complicated contract with details unknown and undecided. We found our idi ot in Johnson.
The idiots, sad to say, were the British public - incapable of thinking critically and falling for spin courtesy of a confidence trickster.

A good reason why referenda are a foolish way of deciding policy - ask those who lack the intellectual competence to make balanced judgements. The alternative - ask the politicians who are as likely to vote on the political consequences as the merits of any argument.

WE ARE DOOMED!!!
 
Not quite as clear cut as you imagine. No one can even be considered for appointment in any chief officer rank without having completed various training etc at the college of policing.
Who is responsible for appointing all the executives of the college, that would be the Home Secretary, who is the boss of that organisation. As such she or he has a very real influence in shaping policing at all levels.
So there is effectively an approved list of those who can apply for such posts, controlled by an organisation run by the Home Secretary. If your name isn't on that list you cannot even apply for such a post.
The Home Secretary also directs the policing priorities of police forces, and can impose meaningful sanctions on any Chief Constable or force that doesn't comply with his or her wishes.
I think it would be hard to argue that dictating what areas of crime the police have to prioritise does not have a very real impact on operational policing.
So if we are talking about day to day issues, what officer patrols what area etc, then you are right.
But the bigger and more important the issues become the greater the influence of the Home Secretary.
To believe otherwise is very naive.

Your opinion is unfounded.
Nothing of what you say counters the very real fact that the Home Office have no power over Operational Policing. In fact the evidence contradicts your opinion many times over.
Operational Policing decisions cannot be directly influenced by the Govt. That's all there is to it.
Fabricating this 'Naivety' argument is hogwash and cannot backed up by observable reality or the regulations and legislation under which Police Forces assign their Operational Efforts. This is irrefutably true because otherwise it would be in direct contravention of the prime principle of separation of the Executive and Enforcement.
Absolutely everything I've contributed on this is irrefutable - even the letter from Braverman that is held in the Judiciary Archives (again, used because the Judiciary is strictly independent of both Police and Govt) states categorically that the Home Sec/Home Office have no power or authority to direct the Police to perform specific Operational tasks or specific Operational decisions - and I used this evidence in particular because Braverman was the one who did try to coerce Policing decisions and got into a right bit of bother about it.
My version stacks up with evidence. I am the bringer of facts.
Yet "alternative facts" seem to have taken a real foothold in this society and I find it truly astonishing that when faced with irrefutable evidence the "alternative facts" believers continue to be staunch believers in what is patently not true.
 
The idiots, sad to say, were the British public - incapable of thinking critically and falling for spin courtesy of a confidence trickster.

A good reason why referenda are a foolish way of deciding policy - ask those who lack the intellectual competence to make balanced judgements. The alternative - ask the politicians who are as likely to vote on the political consequences as the merits of any argument.

WE ARE DOOMED!!!

A classic example of why the UK is becoming so tetchy and divided. “People voted in a way I didn’t like it so they must be stupid” …
 
I’m sure Starmer’s crew could find a way to give NI away, after all it’s only part of an island and they managed to give away a whole island group just a few days ago.

What if I told you that the entire endeavour was begun by previous Tory govt?
What if I told you that Jenrick had a prime role in drafting the deal?
What if I told you that the USA were involved in the decisions and were in firm agreement to hand the islands back, and in particular this is something that Biden actively wanted?
What if I told you the drafting of the legal documentation was entirely completed before the election and that the new govt picked it up and ran it over the line?

With all that in mind is it still Starmer's crew that "gave away a whole island group just a few days ago"?
 
Google "Home Office power over police UK", or "Does the government control the police UK".

Answers will clearly show that police operations are independent of government and that the home office has no power over police operations...

If you seriously believe that the PM, Home Secretary, Mayor of London and Lord Hermer the new Attorney General can't influence the decision makers in Met you're living in cloud cuckoo land. ;) Influence is power just under a different name.
 
Your opinion is unfounded.
Nothing of what you say counters the very real fact that the Home Office have no power over Operational Policing. In fact the evidence contradicts your opinion many times over.
Operational Policing decisions cannot be directly influenced by the Govt. That's all there is to it.
Fabricating this 'Naivety' argument is hogwash and cannot backed up by observable reality or the regulations and legislation under which Police Forces assign their Operational Efforts. This is irrefutably true because otherwise it would be in direct contravention of the prime principle of separation of the Executive and Enforcement.
Absolutely everything I've contributed on this is irrefutable - even the letter from Braverman that is held in the Judiciary Archives (again, used because the Judiciary is strictly independent of both Police and Govt) states categorically that the Home Sec/Home Office have no power or authority to direct the Police to perform specific Operational tasks or specific Operational decisions - and I used this evidence in particular because Braverman was the one who did try to coerce Policing decisions and got into a right bit of bother about it.
My version stacks up with evidence. I am the bringer of facts.
Yet "alternative facts" seem to have taken a real foothold in this society and I find it truly astonishing that when faced with irrefutable evidence the "alternative facts" believers continue to be staunch believers in what is patently not true.
Let us suppose for the sake of argument that I am a chief constable.

I only have that position because I have been approved by the Home Office, without their approval I couldn't have even been considered for that appointment.

The Home Office direct exactly what areas of criminality should be my priorities. The funding of my force, and arguably my own position, are dependant on my compliance with their instructions. These are monitored and reported upon by HM Inspectorate, also representatives of the Home Office.

How exactly I comply with these instructions is up to me, so yes I do at least theoretically have tactical independence. This comes with the very important caveat that if what I choose to do is not to the liking of the Home Office, then the sanctions mentioned above can be applied. So how "independent" am I really?

Of course it may well be necessary to move personell, create new departments etc in order to comply with the strategic aims dictated by the Home Office.

Given that resources are finite this will necessarily lead to officers and staff being redirected, and very probably whole departments or units being disbanded so that their staff can be re deployed to meet new priorities.

Whatever they were doing previously, presumably stuff that I as the Chief Constable thought was important, is therefore curtailed, or abandoned altogether in order to comply with the wishes of the Home Office.
This is clearly an operational impact.

So can the Home Secretary directly instruct a Chief Constable to do x y or z, no.
Can they make their life very difficult if they don't, most certainly.
In London it is arguably even worse with the Mayor having hire and fire power over the commissioner.

If that is your view of what constitutes independence, then we will have to differ.

Personally I have long thought the link should be severed completely.

How that could be done is another debate entirely.
 
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Let us suppose for the sake of argument that I am a chief constable.
I only have that position because I have been approved by the Home Office, without their approval I couldn't have even been considered for that appointment.
The Home Office direct exactly what areas of criminality should be my priorities. The funding of my force, and arguably my own position, are dependant on my compliance with their instructions. These are monitored and reported upon by HM Inspectorate, also representatives of the Home Office.
How exactly I comply with these instructions is up to me, so yes I do have tactical independence, but with the very important caveat that if what I choose to do is not to the liking of the Home Office, then the sanctions mentioned above can be applied. So how "independent" am I really?
Of course it may well be necessary to move personell, create new departments etc in order to comply with the strategic aims dictated by the Home Office.
Given that resources are finite this will necessarily lead to officers and staff being redirected, and very probably whole departments or units being disbanded so that their staff can be re deployed to meet new priorities.
Whatever they were doing previously is therefore curtailed, or abandoned altogether. This is clearly an operational impact.
So can the Home Secretary directly instruct a Chief Constable to do x y or z, no.
Can they make their life very difficult if they don't, most certainly.
In London it is arguably even worse with the Mayor having hire and fire power over the commissioner.
If that is your view of what constitutes independence, then we will have to differ.
Personally I have long thought the link should be severed completely.
How that could be done is another debate entirely.

This is a totally straw man argument. Yes, police officers get "selected" into top jobs, by the govt dept that is responible for Policing. But it is a total stretch and a completely unfounded fabrication to say that they are only selected because they are "yes men/women" or only because they are the ones that can be coerced into taking decisions that are not in the best interest of their Force. The selection clearly is for a reason and looks at a multitude of factors, principally their character, their annual performance reports and their ability as leaders. Similar "selection" criteria exist in the military (my background) and it has zero at all to do with "politics" or "yes men/women" and far more about leadership, prior performance and capacity for good decision making.

Likewise, it is a stretch of the imagination to imply that the Police, which are institutionally separated from interference by the Executive, can be influenced unduly on Operational matters just becasue the strategic context in which they must operate is handed down by Govt.

So you are still sticking to the weaseley worded undertones of what might be fabricated instead of the visible and written facts??

And you don't seem to be acknowledging the fact that there was an Islamic State terror plot just a few days earlier targeting a Taylor Swift concert in another European nation.

I wonder to myself if you guys are for real at times? Talk about giving observable reality a stiff ignoring in favour of a shaky, at best, conspiracy theory.
 
A classic example of why the UK is becoming so tetchy and divided. “People voted in a way I didn’t like it so they must be stupid” …
Yea... but... I mean... consider how dense the average voter is. Then remember that half are dumber than that ;)
 
This is a totally straw man argument. Yes, police officers get "selected" into top jobs, by the govt dept that is responible for Policing. But it is a total stretch and a completely unfounded fabrication to say that they are only selected because they are "yes men/women" or only because they are the ones that can be coerced into taking decisions that are not in the best interest of their Force. The selection clearly is for a reason and looks at a multitude of factors, principally their character, their annual performance reports and their ability as leaders. Similar "selection" criteria exist in the military (my background) and it has zero at all to do with "politics" or "yes men/women" and far more about leadership, prior performance and capacity for good decision making.

Likewise, it is a stretch of the imagination to imply that the Police, which are institutionally separated from interference by the Executive, can be influenced unduly on Operational matters just becasue the strategic context in which they must operate is handed down by Govt.

So you are still sticking to the weaseley worded undertones of what might be fabricated instead of the visible and written facts??

And you don't seem to be acknowledging the fact that there was an Islamic State terror plot just a few days earlier targeting a Taylor Swift concert in another European nation.

I wonder to myself if you guys are for real at times? Talk about giving observable reality a stiff ignoring in favour of a shaky, at best, conspiracy theory.
I hadn't mentioned Taylor Swift, so not sure where that came from.
Widely reported that the Met's plans altered significantly following political intervention.
Is that true?
I don't know, and neither do you unless you were party to the conversations which took place, and have detailed knowledge of the plans before and after those conversations.
 
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