Keir Starmer

[woodieallen]

.....

Your disdain of low paid manual jobs and those that do them is really quite distasteful.

You are applying your own prejudices here and making up in your own mind that ey_tony has 'disdain of low paid manual jobs'. Where has he said that ? His critique is against the whingers.

 

[Jacob]

It's interesting reading these debates from the other side of the globe. Here in NZ, we parallel the UK in so many ways and have many of the same (or similar) problems, many borne out of good intentions that have backfired. We have a bloke on our $50 note by the name of Apirana Ngata - one of the most notable Māori politicians of 100 years ago and a man with vision and foresight. His prediction of the welfare state on Maori has come to pass and led to comments such as these from 2009 (you probably couldn't be so non-PC nowadays): " Family Benefit for Maori was the most controversial aspect of the department’s work. Rather than supplementing hard work, the benefit demoralised Maori communities already vulnerable to drinking and gambling excesses. The men could spend their wages as they wished, regarding the benefit as covering family needs". Of course, it's not just Māori, but seems to have the biggest effect on that group and has set up generations of people who are incapable, dependent and entitled. This, at least in some part, seems to have led to poverty and disproportionate crime rates seen with Māori. However, the woke answer to that, today, in relation to crime, is to direct judges to be more lenient if you have Maori ancestry (like a grandparent or whatever), which, I'm sure will also backfire and have the effect of emboldening criminals. NZ opposed apartheid but is starting to introduce its own version, based on critical race theory, by the looks of it - it's not just the UK with problems!!

Don't the Maoris have a problem - having had their land stolen from them by colonialists?
They are not all layabouts either
https://www.twinkl.co.uk/teaching-wiki/famous-maori-people#cont-12
It can take generations for these things to work out. In the UK we are still failing to deal fairly with the Windrush generation, doubly misused as they also have the misfortune to be descended from slaves forcefully removed from Africa only a few generations back and latterly having to put up with bureaucratic indifference, racism and prejudice in the UK.
Populations don't shift and settle down overnight - many current problems around the globe are a consequences of actions from generations back.

 

[Chris152]

Come on then...what is the 'magic' answer as to why they end up demotivated.

No magic. Have you tried to find out? I'm happy to do a five-minute search for you if you can't do it yourself?

 

[Jacob]

You are applying your own prejudices here and making up in your own mind that ey_tony has 'disdain of low paid manual jobs'. Where has he said that ? His critique is against the whingers.

I thought he was the whinger of whingers himself! One miserable moan after another! Deeply unwoke!

 

[Spectric]

There is more to life than chasing money, for some that becomes their life and nothing else maters but others get pleasure from the manual skilled aspect where they can see what they have done rather than handling paper and cannot see what they have done at the end of a day. For me a job had to be interesting and something that I could relate to rather than accepting promotion into more managerial roles which would have just bored me as I liked the challenges of engineering which has always had the oily rag attitude in the UK unlike in countries like Germany where engineering was held in higher esteem.

 

[Mickjay]

You are applying your own prejudices here and making up in your own mind that ey_tony has 'disdain of low paid manual jobs'. Where has he said that ? His critique is against the whingers.

Quote :
"They're the people who contribute to the country's economy not the whingers in their low skilled ten a penny jobs that anyone with half a brain could do."
: Unquote

Sounds pretty disdainful to me!

 

[AJB Temple]

We have now reached the playground where the kids call each other names. Hopefully rational debate will return soon.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

How many people do you suppose Thomas Sowell interviewed in depth in order to arrive at this conclusion?

It's easy to pick a quotation that supports your opinion, but it doesn't really add anything useful to the discussion.
IMO.

IYO.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Don't the Maoris have a problem - having had their land stolen from them by colonialists?
They are not all layabouts either

The Maori are people who stole the land from the original inhabitants.

Do you actually know anything about the Maori?

 

[Phil Pascoe]

We have now reached the playground where the kids call each other names. Hopefully rational debate will return soon.

Unlikely.

 

[richarddownunder]

Don't the Maoris have a problem - having had their land stolen from them by colonialists?
They are not all layabouts either
https://www.twinkl.co.uk/teaching-wiki/famous-maori-people#cont-12
It can take generations for these things to work out. In the UK we are still failing to deal fairly with the Windrush generation, doubly misused as they also have the misfortune to be descended from slaves forcefully removed from Africa only a few generations back and latterly having to put up with bureaucratic indifference, racism and prejudice in the UK.
Populations don't shift and settle down overnight - many current problems around the globe are a consequences of actions from generations back.

Here is another quote from the same paper: "There can be no doubt that Maori have, at times, been treated unfairly, patronised, exploited, duped and marginalised. We live, though, in times of reconciliation and reparation. New Zealand has established an unmatched record in this endeavour. Despite this, some Maori academics and politicians continue to blame past deeds for present depression and deviancy, thereby handing ‘victims’ a passport to languish. Teaching blame is the antithesis of teaching aspiration." There has been a huge effort to compensate and reconcile past wrongs, which have been fully acknowledged. It has now, some argue, become a grievance industry. If you look at the poverty and crime stats here, the argument is that some of the blame can be attributed to the welfare state. That is not saying all Maori are layabouts - that is your misinterpretation, but the stats are pretty clear and one of the proposals in 2009 was to reduce dependency on benefits in the short-term for the long-term good of that group of people. Sadly, the opposite seems to be happening as we have adopted the critical theory approach of oppressed and oppressor based on ancestry. It's a slippery slope.

 

[Yojevol]

The Maori are people who stole the land from the original inhabitants.

Do you actually know anything about the Maori?

You mean the moas? NZ was the last major land mass to be inhabited by humans - the Maoris from Polynesia.

 

[ey_tony]

So, no explanation or understanding of why people end up unmotivated, 'lazy', feeling unable to improve their lot. The thing is, there are very good explanations, well-researched and thoroughly convincing. But your account of such people seems to stop with 'can't be bothered' etc. Can you be bothered to do the work to help you underst

A question for you: Name one successful person in whatever field of your choosing where apathy was the motivating factor which helped them achieve success? You have plenty of examples to choose from so it should be an easy answer.

I'm quite sure there are many studies with a left wing flavour to explain why some are successful while others aren't and why it's someone or something else's fault why they weren't successful but the common themes in the background of virtually all the success stories I've ever read is that personal ambitions and aspirations to achieve success were the overriding and primary motivating/driving factors behind every successful person's achievements. Apathy genuinely never figured in their success as far as I'm aware.

Thousands of people in the UK on a daily basis overcome adversity, prejudice, disability etc etc in order to achieve their life's ambitions and success. They don't let obstacles stand of the way of success and will find ways around them.

By the same token,, millions of less successful people will have had similar opportunities but failed to grasp/recognise or take up the challenge for a variety of reasons but an integral part of their failure will invariably be apathy. They give up at the first hurdle whereas the successful will continue until their goals are reached.
You can list a host of reasons why some people aren't successful but it isn't the fault of the successful why others fail to achieve.

That arguably applies to the vexed GFA question too! Each time I've been asked the question regarding the GFA on here it comes across as if the person asking the question doesn't actually believe themselves that it can be resolved.
If one believes that a problem/issues are insurmountable and can't be resolved then they won't be, it's termed apathetic or the other explanation is that they don't actually want the issue to be resolved which then fits their own agenda.

If the issues are to be resolved then it needs open-minded people with a forward thinking visionary approach to the problems with a view to resolving them not Luddites with their apathy believing that they can't be resolved.

Sorry but I don't think I'll ever fit into your negative 'oh woe is me' world.

 

[Sachakins]

A question for you: Name one successful person in whatever field of your choosing where apathy was the motivating factor which helped them achieve success? You have plenty of examples to choose from so it should be an easy answer.

POLITICIAN

 

[Chris152]

A question for you: Name one successful person in whatever field of your choosing where apathy was the motivating factor which helped them achieve success? You have plenty of examples to choose from so it should be an easy answer.

I'm quite sure there are many studies with a left wing flavour to explain why some are successful while others aren't and why it's someone or something else's fault why they weren't successful but the common themes in the background of virtually all the success stories I've ever read is that personal ambitions and aspirations to achieve success were the overriding and primary motivating/driving factors behind every successful person's achievements. Apathy genuinely never figured in their success as far as I'm aware.

Thousands of people in the UK on a daily basis overcome adversity, prejudice, disability etc etc in order to achieve their life's ambitions and success. They don't let obstacles stand of the way of success and will find ways around them.

By the same token,, millions of less successful people will have had similar opportunities but failed to grasp/recognise or take up the challenge for a variety of reasons but an integral part of their failure will invariably be apathy. They give up at the first hurdle whereas the successful will continue until their goals are reached.
You can list a host of reasons why some people aren't successful but it isn't the fault of the successful why others fail to achieve.

That arguably applies to the vexed GFA question too! Each time I've been asked the question regarding the GFA on here it comes across as if the person asking the question doesn't actually believe themselves that it can be resolved.
If one believes that a problem/issues are insurmountable and can't be resolved then they won't be, it's termed apathetic or the other explanation is that they don't actually want the issue to be resolved which then fits their own agenda.

If the issues are to be resolved then it needs open-minded people with a forward thinking visionary approach to the problems with a view to resolving them not Luddites with their apathy believing that they can't be resolved.

Sorry but I don't think I'll ever fit into your negative 'oh woe is me' world.

You seem to have misunderstood what I wrote - I didn't suggest that apathy is the path to success in life, I asked if you had an explanation of why some people are unmotivated, feeling unable to improve their lot. Nothing to do with politics, the left etc., just trying to think beyond 'they can't be bothered'.

 

[GuitardoctorW7]

"Businesses pay taxes too; the largest ones paying more than the rest of us put together".....

I'm a one man band, I work in broadcast audio. Couple of years back I paid more Corporation Tax than Amazon UK

 

[RobinBHM]

I've been asked the question regarding the GFA on here it comes across as if the person asking the question doesn't actually believe themselves that it can be resolved

So using your argument, the U.K. can stay in the ECHR and find a way to resolve any issues it may cause.

It seems Tony you just want to leave the ECHR without making any effort to find workable solutions.

 

[RobinBHM]

"Businesses pay taxes too; the largest ones paying more than the rest of us put together".....

I'm a one man band, I work in broadcast audio. Couple of years back I paid more Corporation Tax than Amazon UK

Sadly large multinational businesses have more clout than governments.

If we imposes the correct taxes on Amazon, Google, Apple etc we will face a trade war with America.

even EU had a massive fight taking on Apple, which it first lost then finally won. UK is a minnow compared to EU, we don’t stand a chance.

It’s not fair, but its reality

 

[Blackswanwood]

That arguably applies to the vexed GFA question too! Each time I've been asked the question regarding the GFA on here it comes across as if the person asking the question doesn't actually believe themselves that it can be resolved.
If one believes that a problem/issues are insurmountable and can't be resolved then they won't be, it's termed apathetic or the other explanation is that they don't actually want the issue to be resolved which then fits their own agenda.

I’m all for an open minded approach to problem solving but that also needs a modicum of common sense to stop wasted effort on seeking the unachievable.

You keep deflecting questions by blaming the mindset or opinions of others. How would you resolve the GFA question and how would you renegotiate the deal with the EU as you suggested needs to be done earlier?

It’s easy to sit at a keyboard and spout about these things at a headline level but perhaps a lot harder to actually come up with a workable solution?

 

[Blackswanwood]

Sadly large multinational businesses have more clout than governments.

If we imposes the correct taxes on Amazon, Google, Apple etc we will face a trade war with America.

even EU had a massive fight taking on Apple, which it first lost then finally won. UK is a minnow compared to EU, we don’t stand a chance.

It’s not fair, but its reality

There are things that could be done quite easily here though such as hobbling the ability to avoid tax through licensing and brand fees. Luxembourg might squeal though!