Keir Starmer

[Phil Pascoe]

It isn't the fault of the successful why many others aren't.

"When people are presented with the alternatives of hating themselves for their failures or hating others for their success, they seldom choose to hate themselves."

Thomas Sowell.

 

[John Brown]

"When people are presented with the alternatives of hating themselves for their failures or hating others for their success, they seldom choose to hate themselves."

Thomas Sowell.

How many people do you suppose Thomas Sowell interviewed in depth in order to arrive at this conclusion?

It's easy to pick a quotation that supports your opinion, but it doesn't really add anything useful to the discussion.
IMO.

 

[Noel]

Do you really believe that only the ECHR benefits the British people and that our legal system is incapable of protecting its own citizens or metering out fair justice when needed?
The case I highlighted is a perfect example of an outside body interfering with what should be a simple process of evicting criminals and liars who have entered the county illegally! We've had this problem for years.
If we were allowed to deport criminals for whatever they've done to face the laws of their own country we wouldn't have so many coming here hiding behind the skirts of the ECHR in the first place. Once here it's virtually impossible to get rid of them.

The case of Abu Hamza al-Masri was another prime example of interference by the ECHR. Look at the lengths and costs they had to go to get rid of him.

If it can be proven beyond any doubt that someone coming here is guilty of a case of premeditated murder without any justification then they should be turfed out back to their home country forthwith to face the music with no appeals so that if they have the death penalty in that country then that's their problem not ours. We don't need them, we have enough of our own home-grown criminals without importing them.

The ECHR has ruled that the Albanian murderer has aright to family life...what about the person whom he shot in the head? Didn't they have a right to family life?
It's about time we got rid of this nonsense had a referendum on leaving the ECHR.

So, how would you maintain the GFA if the UK left the ECHR?

Any news yet @ey_tony ?

 

[Jake]

How many people do you suppose Thomas Sowell interviewed in depth in order to arrive at this conclusion?

It's easy to pick a quotation that supports your opinion, but it doesn't really add anything useful to the discussion.
IMO.

It does reflect much English thought on immigration though (and therefore Brexit).

 

[ey_tony]

Any news yet @ey_tony ?

What news do you want?
If they could send humans to the moon in the 20th Century, then surely it's not beyond the realms of possibility in the 21st Century to negotiate/ resolve the GFA/ECHR issues unless one wants to see them as an issue which can't be resolved in order to protract the UK's link with the EHCR.
I'll wager now the strongest proponents of staying in the ECHR are those who voted remain in the Brexit referendum.

The UK doesn't need people like that in charge of any negotiations if the UK is ever to progress as a fully independent nation. We saw how flawed Brexit negotiations were on the run up to leaving the EU.
The UK was in a prime position to call the shots but failed miserably due to weak negotiators.
The EU is a failing entity so why pin one's colours to the mast of a sinking ship?

 

[ey_tony]

How many people do you suppose Thomas Sowell interviewed in depth in order to arrive at this conclusion?

It's easy to pick a quotation that supports your opinion, but it doesn't really add anything useful to the discussion.
IMO.

I've travelled quite extensively around the world and in doing so I got to know the foundation of many cultures and I have to say of all the countries I've visited, none compare to Britain when it comes to vilifying anyone successful.
In the vast majority of countries success is admired but not here in Britain.
Here because of backward socialist politics, success is something to be vilified and punitively punished. Many of the people of this country have a terrible attitude toward anyone who breaks out of their social shackles and makes a success of their lives. It's envy and entitlement pure and simple all rolled into one.

Unless a large proportion of the population shed their backward ideas we'll always be a nation of haves and have-nots with everyone poorer as a consequence.

 

[sploo]

The UK was in a prime position to call the shots but failed miserably due to weak negotiators.
The EU is a failing entity so why pin one's colours to the mast of a sinking ship?

 

[ey_tony]

View attachment 190146

When someone posts images like that I find it says it says far more about them than the original poster or myself in this case as it indicates that they aren't bright enough to grasp the details to have a reasoned debate....therefore I file their posts under the title Excrement. I have an image for that purpose if you'd like me to post it?

 

[Chris152]

Can you think of any reasons why some people are apathetic/ can't be bothered/ etc. Are those people that way because of some biological/ genetic condition, a result of the environment and culture they're born to, a combination of those, or something else?

On the British education system, this seems interesting:
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/nov/21/english-class-system-shaped-in-schools

Any thoughts yet @ey_tony ?
Clearly, it's not good enough to simply label people this or that, we need to try to understand why they are the way they are.

 

[sploo]

When someone posts images like that I find it says it says far more about them than the original poster or myself in this case as it indicates that they aren't bright enough to grasp the details to have a reasoned debate....therefore I file their posts under the title Excrement. I have an image for that purpose if you'd like me to post it?

The idea that the UK was in a prime position to "call the shots" in Brexit negotiations has been repeatedly shown (by anyone with even the merest understanding of international trade and law) to be such utter and total fantasy that for anyone to repeat that claim now... it's hard to respond with anything other than a facepalm.

Additionally, the claim of the EU failing has also been repeated Ad infinitum. The only bit missing is it actually coming true.

It's bonkers Tony. Hallucinations by people who believe because they want it to be true, rather than any of it being reflected by any sort of rational factual reality. It was nonsense long before the referendum. It was nonsense after the referendum. And in the years since, the damage to the UK's economy and standing on the world stage, have showed it continues to be nonsense.

 

[Blackswanwood]

If they could send humans to the moon in the 20th Century, then surely it's not beyond the realms of possibility in the 21st Century to negotiate/ resolve the GFA/ECHR issues unless one wants to see them as an issue which can't be resolved in order to protract the UK's link with the EHCR.
I'll wager now the strongest proponents of staying in the ECHR are those who voted remain in the Brexit referendum

You’ve managed to get a red herring and straw man into that one Tony.

How would you overcome the GFA issue?

 

[ey_tony]

Any thoughts yet @ey_tony ?
Clearly, it's not good enough to simply label people this or that, we need to try to understand why they are the way they are.

It is a good enough reason to label people if they make no attempt to better their job prospects and therefore their earning potential and then complain about others who make an effort and therefore end up being successful.
I've worked for myself my entire life. The government never did anything to help me and there was very little help by way of benefits in those days so I either sank or swam and invested my time, effort and money in order to improve my lifestyle.
I even went to university full time as a mature student after completing foundation courses in maths and sciences with the OU in my spare time and gained an Honours Degree in Geology/Geophysics at a red brick uni having never studied the subject until I completed the OU's science and maths foundation courses.

Education shouldn't end when one leaves school, it should be ongoing throughout one's life if necessary.

Sorry but I'm afraid I little or no sympathy or empathy for those who are capable of improving their lifestyle and job opportunities but can't be bothered as it would be too much effort.
If they couldn't be bothered then they have no right to complain about the low wage jobs they end up in nor the prosperity of others who put the effort in.

If someone is mentally or physically challenged then that is a different issue and need society's support but plenty of disabled people who could live on benefits choose to work and even train to improve their job prospects.
My OH's sister is a solicitor. She's actually registered blind but with the little sight she has she holds down a full time job in a law firm and commutes across London on a daily basis so she's never let her visual disadvantage hold her back so when I near whingers complain about other's success I'm afraid I have no time for them but I do have time for those who go out of their way to improve their lifestyle and job prospects.

They're the people who contribute to the country's economy not the whingers in their low skilled ten a penny jobs that anyone with half a brain could do.

I have several ethnic friends who came here to the UK and have made a success of their lives. Just across town is my good friend MO...I'll let you decipher his religious background.
He came here from Iraq and owns successful fast food businesses employing quite a number of people but he worked hard to get to that position.
He like my other ethnic friends arrived here with nothing but have made a success of their lives through hard work. You get nothing for nothing in this world and get you out of life mostly what you put into it.
There now I'm sure this post will upset the woke brigade.

 

[ey_tony]

The idea that the UK was in a prime position to "call the shots" in Brexit negotiations has been repeatedly shown (by anyone with even the merest understanding of international trade and law) to be such utter and total fantasy that for anyone to repeat that claim now... it's hard to respond with anything other than a facepalm.

Additionally, the claim of the EU failing has also been repeated Ad infinitum. The only bit missing is it actually coming true.

It's bonkers Tony. Hallucinations by people who believe because they want it to be true, rather than any of it being reflected by any sort of rational factual reality. It was nonsense long before the referendum. It was nonsense after the referendum. And in the years since, the damage to the UK's economy and standing on the world stage, have showed it continues to be nonsense.

Once the UK left the EU, together with the USA they were the EU's largest rest of the world's non-EU markets with around 18% share each of the EU's trade with the rest of the world.
The Brexit negotiators sold the UK down the river and got the worst possible deals because the EU didn't want to concede the fact that anyone leaving the EU would be successful so they've done all in their power to make it as difficult as possible for the UK to be successful after Brexit.

As a business person I would argue that the EU's access to British markets should be re-negotiated in favour of the UK instead of the EU. The UK has always had a trading deficit with the EU in favour of the EU to the tune of £95bn in 2023.
If that was done correctly parts of the EU's economy would go into recession so they would have to negotiate, the only problem is the people like yourself who neither understand, want to nor have guts to take them on at their own game which is why I ignore the jibes of remain voters, they're all that is wrong with Britain right now.

 

[Chris152]

It is a good enough reason to label people if they make no attempt to better their job prospects and therefore their earning potential and then complain about others who make an effort and therefore end up being successful.
I've worked for myself my entire life. The government never did anything to help me and there was very little help by way of benefits in those days so I either sank or swam and invested my time, effort and money in order to improve my lifestyle.
I even went to university full time as a mature student after completing foundation courses in maths and sciences with the OU in my spare time and gained an Honours Degree in Geology/Geophysics at a red brick uni having never studied the subject until I completed the OU's science and maths foundation courses.

Education shouldn't end when one leaves school, it should be ongoing throughout one's life if necessary.

Sorry but I'm afraid I little or no sympathy or empathy for those who are capable of improving their lifestyle and job opportunities but can't be bothered as it would be too much effort.
If they couldn't be bothered then they have no right to complain about the low wage jobs they end up in nor the prosperity of others who put the effort in.

If someone is mentally or physically challenged then that is a different issue and need society's support but plenty of disabled people who could live on benefits choose to work and even train to improve their job prospects.
My OH's sister is a solicitor. She's actually registered blind but with the little sight she has she holds down a full time job in a law firm and commutes across London on a daily basis so she's never let her visual disadvantage hold her back so when I near whingers complain about other's success I'm afraid I have no time for them but I do have time for those who go out of their way to improve their lifestyle and job prospects.

They're the people who contribute to the country's economy not the whingers in their low skilled ten a penny jobs that anyone with half a brain could do.

I have several ethnic friends who came here to the UK and have made a success of their lives. Just across town is my good friend MO...I'll let you decipher his religious background.
He came here from Iraq and owns successful fast food businesses employing quite a number of people but he worked hard to get to that position.
He like my other ethnic friends arrived here with nothing but have made a success of their lives through hard work. You get nothing for nothing in this world and get you out of life mostly what you put into it.
There now I'm sure this post will upset the woke brigade.

So, no explanation or understanding of why people end up unmotivated, 'lazy', feeling unable to improve their lot. The thing is, there are very good explanations, well-researched and thoroughly convincing. But your account of such people seems to stop with 'can't be bothered' etc. Can you be bothered to do the work to help you understand?

 

[Blackswanwood]

As a business person I would argue that the EU's access to British markets should be re-negotiated in favour of the UK instead of the EU.

I’m sure we’d all like that but why would the EU agree to it?

What bargaining chips or levers would you deploy to make it happen?

 

[sploo]

Once the UK left the EU, together with the USA they were the EU's largest rest of the world's non-EU markets with around 18% share each of the EU's trade with the rest of the world.
The Brexit negotiators sold the UK down the river and got the worst possible deals because the EU didn't want to concede the fact that anyone leaving the EU would be successful so they've done all in their power to make it as difficult as possible for the UK to be successful after Brexit.

As a business person I would argue that the EU's access to British markets should be re-negotiated in favour of the UK instead of the EU. The UK has always had a trading deficit with the EU in favour of the EU to the tune of £95bn in 2023.
If that was done correctly parts of the EU's economy would go into recession so they would have to negotiate, the only problem is the people like yourself who neither understand, want to nor have guts to take them on at their own game which is why I ignore the jibes of remain voters, they're all that is wrong with Britain right now.

Brexit negotiations went the way they did because they were conducted by people even the leave side considered to be complete morons (e.g. David Davis*). The UK has an absence of independent trade negotiators, because we'd done it for years as part of the EU bloc.

Whilst it stands to reason the EU bloc wouldn't have leapt to make our exit look good, they most certainly didn't need to do anything to make it look bad; that was entirely down to our own leader's ineptitude and nationalistic hubris.

The rest of the above is just pure nonsense, and flies in the face of analysis by any people that understand trade rules.

*https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...lazy-as-a-toad-dominic-cummings-a7845911.html

There now I'm sure this post will upset the woke brigade.

Per an earlier post; you still haven't defined "woke".

 

[Hypnotic Chimera]

It is a good enough reason to label people if they make no attempt to better their job prospects and therefore their earning potential and then complain about others who make an effort and therefore end up being successful.
I've worked for myself my entire life. The government never did anything to help me and there was very little help by way of benefits in those days so I either sank or swam and invested my time, effort and money in order to improve my lifestyle.
I even went to university full time as a mature student after completing foundation courses in maths and sciences with the OU in my spare time and gained an Honours Degree in Geology/Geophysics at a red brick uni having never studied the subject until I completed the OU's science and maths foundation courses.

Education shouldn't end when one leaves school, it should be ongoing throughout one's life if necessary.

Sorry but I'm afraid I little or no sympathy or empathy for those who are capable of improving their lifestyle and job opportunities but can't be bothered as it would be too much effort.
If they couldn't be bothered then they have no right to complain about the low wage jobs they end up in nor the prosperity of others who put the effort in.

If someone is mentally or physically challenged then that is a different issue and need society's support but plenty of disabled people who could live on benefits choose to work and even train to improve their job prospects.
My OH's sister is a solicitor. She's actually registered blind but with the little sight she has she holds down a full time job in a law firm and commutes across London on a daily basis so she's never let her visual disadvantage hold her back so when I near whingers complain about other's success I'm afraid I have no time for them but I do have time for those who go out of their way to improve their lifestyle and job prospects.

They're the people who contribute to the country's economy not the whingers in their low skilled ten a penny jobs that anyone with half a brain could do.

I have several ethnic friends who came here to the UK and have made a success of their lives. Just across town is my good friend MO...I'll let you decipher his religious background.
He came here from Iraq and owns successful fast food businesses employing quite a number of people but he worked hard to get to that position.
He like my other ethnic friends arrived here with nothing but have made a success of their lives through hard work. You get nothing for nothing in this world and get you out of life mostly what you put into it.
There now I'm sure this post will upset the woke brigade.

Wow. It really is quite clear that you have zero empathy or sympathy to those you regard as your inferiors.

There remains, however, just one fatal flaw to your argument regarding the "ten a penny jobs" that "anyone with half a brain could do".
Namely, that the loos still need to be cleaned and that *somebody* still needs to do that job, even when the one who has upskilled and taken better paid employment has vacated the role.

Your disdain of low paid manual jobs and those that do them is really quite distasteful.

 

[Mickjay]

It is a good enough reason to label people if they make no attempt to better their job prospects and therefore their earning potential and then complain about others who make an effort and therefore end up being successful.
I've worked for myself my entire life. The government never did anything to help me and there was very little help by way of benefits in those days so I either sank or swam and invested my time, effort and money in order to improve my lifestyle.
I even went to university full time as a mature student after completing foundation courses in maths and sciences with the OU in my spare time and gained an Honours Degree in Geology/Geophysics at a red brick uni having never studied the subject until I completed the OU's science and maths foundation courses.

Education shouldn't end when one leaves school, it should be ongoing throughout one's life if necessary.

Sorry but I'm afraid I little or no sympathy or empathy for those who are capable of improving their lifestyle and job opportunities but can't be bothered as it would be too much effort.
If they couldn't be bothered then they have no right to complain about the low wage jobs they end up in nor the prosperity of others who put the effort in.

If someone is mentally or physically challenged then that is a different issue and need society's support but plenty of disabled people who could live on benefits choose to work and even train to improve their job prospects.
My OH's sister is a solicitor. She's actually registered blind but with the little sight she has she holds down a full time job in a law firm and commutes across London on a daily basis so she's never let her visual disadvantage hold her back so when I near whingers complain about other's success I'm afraid I have no time for them but I do have time for those who go out of their way to improve their lifestyle and job prospects.

They're the people who contribute to the country's economy not the whingers in their low skilled ten a penny jobs that anyone with half a brain could do.

I have several ethnic friends who came here to the UK and have made a success of their lives. Just across town is my good friend MO...I'll let you decipher his religious background.
He came here from Iraq and owns successful fast food businesses employing quite a number of people but he worked hard to get to that position.
He like my other ethnic friends arrived here with nothing but have made a success of their lives through hard work. You get nothing for nothing in this world and get you out of life mostly what you put into it.
There now I'm sure this post will upset the woke brigade.

You do realise that by definition half the population is of below average intelligence so with the best will in the world they're not generally going to be super motivated high earners. There will obviously be some who are, but fortunately the rest of them will do the jobs you appear to disdain. If everyone had high aspirations who would be left to empty bins, drive buses, clean trains, serve food ......................etc?

 

[richarddownunder]

Do you really believe that?
If the government redistributed the entire wealth of the UK with the people living here, then within a decade there would be billionaires and people in destitution. There is no such thing as normal values where some people are concerned.
Much of the poverty we have in the UK is actually self inflicted.
My OH a social worker is going out today to visit a dysfunctional family in crisis. The mother has several thousand pounds in benefits coming into her household every month but they had no food in the house when my OH visited the other day...as soon as the money comes in it goes out ...the mother is spending it on drugs so my OH had had buy food for them. This is what you're dealing with so to carp on about poverty and a failed economy is nonsense, look at why before making a judgement.

Her kids are young teenage girls who are being neglected very badly and it will likely be that they will be taken into care for their own protection. They're sensible but the mother is a loser and always will be.
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink! She has more money than many working families coming in each month but she has no values so gets into debt by spending on rubbish she puts inside her body.
She also gets through 2 packs of cigarettes each day. That's 40 cigarettes daily or £160-200 per week that the taxpayer is contributing to her worthless lifestyle just for cigarettes.

A person with a half a functioning brain wouldn't do the things she does so not all poverty is due to a failed economy, much of it is down to a failed character and unfortunately there is no cure for stupidity.

It's interesting reading these debates from the other side of the globe. Here in NZ, we parallel the UK in so many ways and have many of the same (or similar) problems, many borne out of good intentions that have backfired. We have a bloke on our $50 note by the name of Apirana Ngata - one of the most notable Māori politicians of 100 years ago and a man with vision and foresight. His prediction of the welfare state on Maori has come to pass and led to comments such as these from 2009 (you probably couldn't be so non-PC nowadays): " Family Benefit for Maori was the most controversial aspect of the department’s work. Rather than supplementing hard work, the benefit demoralised Maori communities already vulnerable to drinking and gambling excesses. The men could spend their wages as they wished, regarding the benefit as covering family needs". Of course, it's not just Māori, but seems to have the biggest effect on that group and has set up generations of people who are incapable, dependent and entitled. This, at least in some part, seems to have led to poverty and disproportionate crime rates seen with Māori. However, the woke answer to that, today, in relation to crime, is to direct judges to be more lenient if you have Maori ancestry (like a grandparent or whatever), which, I'm sure will also backfire and have the effect of emboldening criminals. NZ opposed apartheid but is starting to introduce its own version, based on critical race theory, by the looks of it - it's not just the UK with problems!!

 

[woodieallen]

So, no explanation or understanding of why people end up unmotivated, 'lazy', feeling unable to improve their lot. The thing is, there are very good explanations, well-researched and thoroughly convincing. But your account of such people seems to stop with 'can't be bothered' etc. Can you be bothered to do the work to help you understand?

Come on then...what is the 'magic' answer as to why they end up demotivated.