Keir Starmer

[Terry - Somerset]

I hate to say this but you accuse British politicians of "doing nothing constructive or effective", whilst you yourself have offered suggestions that are not realistic at all

Are you sure you want to put these forward as real world ideas:

• asylum claims to be made on line before arrival with very clear criteria.
• only one claim allowed, a decision within three months, and no repeated appeals
• sink the boats as they enter UK waters
• deportation within 1 month if asylum claim not approved

I mean "sink the boats as they enter UK waters" .............come on Terry you cant be suggesting that

They were intended to illustrate that which may be a real deterrent. They all reflect the views of some in society - personally I find the "sink the boats" option completely abhorrent. The others may have some merit.

Some folk commendably accept a responsibility towards humanity and seem to set no limit on those for whom they would provide a safe haven. I think there needs to be limits.

Illegal migration has been an issue for 20+ years - possibly since UK joined the EU when border controls were relaxed. Method has changed from "hide in the back of lorries" where total numbers were not evident, to small boats which are far more visible on arrival.

Illegal migration is a controversial issue and needs explicit discussion, policy and action. Many will not like the outcome - but political leadership should be about doing that which is judged "right". To use a somewhat vulgar expression - "p155 or get off the pot" - end procrastination.

 

[spanner48]

the Ukrainian pattern is men have stayed behind to fight with a supportive democratic government who has support of the West

the Syrian pattern is men have been continuously persecuted and caught in a war where the leader is killing its people


I might politely suggest your "commonsensense" is not based on fact


If you have any reasoned counter arguments to make against the 4 main reasons I posted explaining why its mostly men, I will welcome them

The other difference is that the Ukrainians have all managed to keep hold of their ID documents

. . . . unlike the others.

 

[Jacob]

The other difference is that the Ukrainians have all managed to keep hold of their ID documents

. . . . unlike the others.

You don't know this. You've made it up.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Of course. Everyone else lies.

 

[Jacob]

......

Illegal migration is a controversial issue and needs explicit discussion, policy and action. Many will not like the outcome - but political leadership should be about doing that which is judged "right". To use a somewhat vulgar expression - "p155 or get off the pot" - end procrastination.

I agree, except that you could cross off the word "illegal". That should only be decided after due process.

 

[spanner48]

You don't know this. You've made it up.

www.migrationwatchuk.org:
24 Feb 2022 — 98% Of Channel Boat Migrants Have No Passport

Maybe: A little less emotion; a few more facts?

 

[Sean33]

Click on their avatar and you're presented with the options of giving them a gift, following them or ignoring them.

Thanks, much appreciated

 

[Terry - Somerset]

I agree, except that you could cross off the word "illegal". That should only be decided after due process.

They are, as a matter of absolute fact, illegal until they make an asylum claim. They then become asylum claimants.

 

[RobinBHM]

No more 'fact' than having lived and worked in Ukraine, and hosted Ukrainian refugees - women and children. And having lived and worked in Albania - and in virtually all the countries from which migrants are coming. And the FACTS - gathered on the ground from the people concerned - is that the motive is primarily economic: to earn money to be sent back home to support the family there.

That may be a laudable enterprise. But it's NOT grounds for 'Refugee' status.

Thank you for your reply.

Unfortunately you have not made any counter argument to A) the comparison I made with Ukraine, or B) the previous 4 points I made.

Your post makes repeated mention of the word “fact”, but you haven’t actually stated a single fact.


Your argument seems to be that Ukrainians fleeing Putins bombs are genuine, whilst Syrians fleeing Putins bombs are economic migrants. Mmmmm

 

[spanner48]

Thank you for your reply.

Unfortunately you have not made any counter argument to A) the comparison I made with Ukraine, or B) the previous 4 points I made.

Your post makes repeated mention of the word “fact”, but you haven’t actually stated a single fact.


Your argument seems to be that Ukrainians fleeing Putins bombs are genuine, whilst Syrians fleeing Putins bombs are economic migrants. Mmmmm

 

[RobinBHM]

Some folk commendably accept a responsibility towards humanity and seem to set no limit on those for whom they would provide a safe haven.

this is a commonly used appeal to extremes fallacy used in this debate:

"you would just welcome them all"

Sadly when reasonable people want to debate the subject based on fact, evidence and data this is the response they get.

I think there needs to be limits.

how can you set a limit when the the number of people being subjected to war and persecution is uncontrolled. The number of people leaving the French coast is unquantified and beyond the UKs control

you made these points:

• asylum claims to be made on line before arrival with very clear criteria.
• only one claim allowed, a decision within three months, and no repeated appeals
• sink the boats as they enter UK waters
• deportation within 1 month if asylum claim not approved

"only one claim allowed, a decision in 3 months.."
how can you set a time limit when dealing with information that has to come from foreign sources

the Labour party have speeding up claims as their manifest policy, they are taking on more staff to deal with it.


"deportation within 1 month if asylum claim not approved"
Unless there is a returns agreement with the returning country that cant happen

 

[RobinBHM]

www.migrationwatchuk.org:
24 Feb 2022 — 98% Of Channel Boat Migrants Have No Passport

Maybe: A little less emotion; a few more facts?

migration watch is a Conservative propaganda site which contains misleading data.
Its president is President is Lord Green of Deddington, a Tory peer

https://workpermit.com/news/migration-watch-uk-criticised-misleading-uk-immigration-reports-20160629

migration observatory is a more impartial source of information

 

[Jacob]

They are, as a matter of absolute fact, illegal until they make an asylum claim. They then become asylum claimants.

No. As an absolute fact they become "'illegal" if they avoid making an an asylum claim at the earliest opportunity.

 

[RobinBHM]

The other difference is that the Ukrainians have all managed to keep hold of their ID documents

. . . . unlike the others.

False argument

the UK has a Ukrainian visa scheme set up, so people who were fleeing Putins bombs in Ukraine had a safe route here
the UK has no visa scheme for Syrians, so those Syrians fleeing Putins bombs in Syria had to pay people smugglers and cross the water.

 

[RobinBHM]

They are, as a matter of absolute fact, illegal until they make an asylum claim. They then become asylum claimants.

they arrive on a beach on South coast of England and are met by the Coast Guard and their first words are "I would like to apply for asylum"

So yes they are technically illegal for about 5 minutes on British soil*


*of course the wonderful Conservative government ignored international refugee convention and stopped any people arriving by small boat applying for asylum, which became law on 20th July 2023

 

[Jacob]

www.migrationwatchuk.org:
24 Feb 2022 — 98% Of Channel Boat Migrants Have No Passport

.....

You need to ask yourself why.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Because they know we can't send them home. It's not rocket science.

 

[spanner48]

I have not made any counter-arguments to "the previous 4 points I made" because they simply parrot the un-fact-based opinions of a Professor of Sociology at a mid-ranking university. His "Institute", the: Institute for Research into Superdiversity, University of Birmingham tells us, I suggest, all we need to know about his political biasses.

Your point about Syrians has some validity. Though why they should feel entitled to settle in England, when Syria was a French protectorate, and is the language most of them speak [apart from Arabic], is not clear. But they represent a miniscule proportion of small boat arrivals:

It might have more validity if applied to those from Afghanistan or Iraq – for which the UK has historically been in part responsible [vide Sykes-Picot; Panther's Claw; Pitting].

 

[Delaney]

personally Im not too keen on our government inflicting suffering on to others

I like to think of the quote by Tony Benn:

"The way a government treats refugees is very instructive because it shows you how they would treat the rest of us if they thought they could get away with it."

You’re just the passing the suffering onto people who are already here.
The most depressed areas generally have the highest levels of low skilled immigration.
There is no metric by which that could be good for those already in dire straits.

It hasn’t created jobs, it hasn’t lifted them out of poverty but it has created a lot of sectarian problems that otherwise didn’t exist and allowed government to simply brush them under the carpet.
Which is the opposite of what those poor native communities needed.

It’s all very well having some ‘doo-gooder’ virtue signalling politician bang on about refugees but; in reality what is car more instructive, is how a country (and its liberal class), treat their own.
And on those metrics, both the governments and the liberal left wing class, have utterly failed. Actually beyond failed, a complete dereliction of duty and care.

 

[RobinBHM]

www.migrationwatchuk.org:
24 Feb 2022 — 98% Of Channel Boat Migrants Have No Passport

Maybe: A little less emotion; a few more facts?

Are you surprised that that people fleeing war or persecution have no documents?

I mean how easy do you think it will be for an Afghanistan person to pop into their Taliban run govt department and say "hey Id like to escape from your oppressive regime, would you mind terribly giving me a passport?"