Just use the blade guard!

[RobinBHM]

Circular saws can be used for a range of operations and so there are loads of injury potentials.

What people forget is the work itself acts to complete the protection from the blade during the cut and longer wider pieces offer more protection. The biggest danger is pretty much always the end of the cut - where the blade becomes exposed and there is a loose offcut.

Because the work is part of the protection, the guard can never nor should be considered to be the only protection barrier.


On Friday I ripped down a 100m of glazing bead (it's made wider and profiled on 2 opposite edges to later be ripped. I used 2 push sticks - one long and springy to act as permanent side pressure and a thin push stick to push it next to the rip fence. My hands were always 2 feet from the blade.

For ripping, I always set the rip fence so it finishes just past the blade gullets....that way it doesn't bind on the back of the blade

 

[silentsam]

Sorry I dont accept having a guard will prevent accidents 100% of the time, it is the operator and their attitude as well as their concentration that is the paramount aspect.

I agree with this but you are forgetting that most people are completely stupid and probably need more safety features, not less. For every person that is super cautious like you there are probably 3 who are a little careless and 1 who is a total moron.

 

[Chris70]

In response to TRITON's post up there. This whole thread is predominantly about the inherent dangers of people who seriously risk the well-being of others by disregarding crucial safety measures and propagating that on an open public platform. Why would you then reiterate that very same risk on that very same thread. I hear these counter arguments all the time;


The reality of a blade guard being there or not doesn't actually dilute its intended verifiable purpose.

Assuming we are still talking about a saw with a purposely removed safety guard, this is illegal and only a matter of time before more than one set of blue lights turns up at those premises.

This statement would have credibility if arguing for safety but to use it to argue against it makes no sense. Having an accident doesn't qualify anyone to argue against working safe.

Obviously accidents happen with safety guards in place, that's just the law of averages but this doesn't mean they don't prevent accidents.

That thought process doesn't replace safety guards, it can perversely however breed contempt over a period of time, for all of us.

This is the classic devolution of the counter argument, reference something absurd never stated but subtly suggest the opposing stance made it. In all my years in interacting with other woodworkers, both in-person and online, I have not once seen or heard anyone making the case for working safe that 'having a guard will prevent accidents 100% of the time'.

I don't mean to single you out TRITON, I haven't a Scoobies who you are. This is not an attack on you, I am addressing your text as in my opinion it is crucial that any new woodworkers reading it need to know this is not common sense or a valid argument to not use safety measures on equipment that can change your entire life for the worse in seconds if not used properly. Safety guards are part of the machine design, your average woodworker does not know better than the machine designer or is in a position to question the validity of the Health and Safety directorate of their respective countries. We don't advocate removing the blade guard on a circular saw or suggest removing the guarding on most other high speed cutting machines so why do table saw's get a pass? in my limited experience the reason most people remove the guard is bore out of ignorance, arrogance or a laziness to replace it after removing it - yes you sometimes need to remove it but equally sometimes there are other safety measures to cover that circumstance, sometimes these are other guards.

I'm not the safety police, we are all adults. All I ask is if anyone comes across the text up there and thinks it's a valid case to remove safety guards please read a little further before going further. People can and will operate as they see fit, I'm in no position to tell anyone what to do and again TRITON, this is not aimed at you, more the argument you make.

Just like gambling, don't gamble with what you can't afford to lose.

 

[Chris70]

Just like gambling, don't gamble with what you can't afford to lose.

Says it all! Don’t gamble!

 

[TRITON]

@shed9

Do you deep rip ?

Do you cut tenons on the saw bench ?

Do you cut dados on the saw bench ?.

All of which require the guard to be removed.

If you answer yes to any of those then my point is wholly valid and to disagree is , well kind of nit picking and a tad shall we say hypocritical.
All those operations are legitimate legal operations. The guard doesnt need be there all the time. Theres no written rule that says those operations must never be carried out and indeed hse is aware of that. CARE MUST BE TAKEN, That is the golden rule.

Now you might not personally cut tenons, dados or deep rip, you may have a separate mounted guard, or a big bandsaw. But they ARE legitimate operations. And its always the case CARE MUST BE TAKEN.

Look at moulding with the ring fence. The blade is totally exposed.

I knew that some would be aghast at such a post. But thats only because they think a guard must always be in place, and sometimes thats just not possible.

 

[MarkDennehy]

shrugs while looking at the finger he shoved into a bandsaw a fortnight ago

I mean, add another reason to why I don't ever want a table saw, or a jointer or a router table in my workshed. If you're a professional and using those things are your bread and butter, that's one thing, but I write software for a living - if it takes me twice as long to do something in the shed, well, who cares? My mortgage is still getting paid. If I have an accident with a tablesaw and lose two fingers... I mean, not being able to type is rather an impediment in the day job. Not fatal, but definitely a pain in the fundament. I can break down sheet goods with a tracksaw, I can do most of the cuts I'd want from a tablesaw on a bandsaw (not that they're totally safe), and I can joint with my handplanes and I can do mouldings with hollows and rounds and so on and so on - you all know the score there.

For a hobbyist, maybe jointing by hand is a better point on the risk/reward curve than jointing with a machine that will take your fingers and leave nothing that can be reattached surgically. Thicknessing tends to find a different point on that curve due to laziness

Also, please tell me everyone's got a first aid kit with compression pads within a few seconds? I mean, that seems rather... basic as a requirement not to mention cheap - drop St.Johns less than fifty quid and you'll wind up with a first aid kit that you could probably use for everything from a chisel nick to a gunshot wound, overkill in first aid comes dirt cheap.

 

[silentsam]

I knew that some would be aghast at such a post. But thats only because they think a guard must always be in place, and sometimes thats just not possible.

I think the process of having to remove the guard for such cuts is actually a good one. When you do so you are hyper-aware of the blade and more careful than ever. If the guard is always removed some people will become more comfortable and complacent in my opinion.

 

[MarkDennehy]

I agree with this but you are forgetting that most people are completely stupid and probably need more safety features, not less. For every person that is super cautious like you there are probably 3 who are a little careless and 1 who is a total moron.

raises injured hand
I mean, I like to think I'm not a complete moron, but I'd like the extra safety guards for when my brain decides to take a few seconds off when it really should have been more focussed; I'm not sure I like the idea of only keeping my fingers during the time I'm completely focussed on a task

 

[TRITON]

I'll also take it most aren't aware that the most dangerous part of a saw blade is the back, not the front. ESPECIALLY when theres a guard in place.
The teeth face and run upward you see, so the blade catches and pulls in up under and into the guard.

Thats something you really need to be aware of when you use a 800mm Robinson rip saw for the first time

 

[DBT85]

a router table

On this alone, I'd say depending on that you are routing a table is safer than doing it handheld. You can use all manner of things to help prevent your digits getting near the bit, and the bit isn't going anywhere other than round and round.

If you're doing it with a palm router instead, it's possible to have a moment, the bit climbs and then attacks your hand.

As with every tool, it's a matter of using it as safely as possible. I say this as a moron who's used a table saw with no guard on for things other than just making housings in the past.

I reckon more have done dumb things that would care to admit it.

 

[shed9]

I agree with this but you are forgetting that most people are completely stupid and probably need more safety features, not less. For every person that is super cautious like you there are probably 3 who are a little careless and 1 who is a total moron.

Even super cautious people can be careless and do moronic things, I know I'm not immune to it and can give most careless morons a run for their money on a bad day. This is not a case of more safety features for those that need it, it's the design of the saw regardless of how careful people think they are.

@shed9

Do you deep rip ?

Do you cut tenons on the saw bench ?

Do you cut dados on the saw bench ?.

All of which require the guard to be removed.

If you answer yes to any of those then my point is wholly valid and to disagree is , well kind of nit picking and a tad shall we say hypocritical.
All those operations are legitimate legal operations. The guard doesnt need be there all the time. Theres no written rule that says those operations must never be carried out and indeed hse is aware of that. CARE MUST BE TAKEN, That is the golden rule.

Now you might not personally cut tenons, dados or deep rip, you may have a separate mounted guard, or a big bandsaw. But they ARE legitimate operations. And its always the case CARE MUST BE TAKEN.

Look at moulding with the ring fence. The blade is totally exposed.

I knew that some would be aghast at such a post. But thats only because they think a guard must always be in place, and sometimes thats just not possible.

No nit picking hypocrisy, just asking people to question a blanket email arguing against the efficacy of fitted safety equipment.

I appreciate and accept that some table saw functions require the removal of the blade guard, but for those functions where it needn't be removed then why would you? More importantly why would you advocate that practise to people who come here for advice? That was the rationale to my retort. No amount of thought process, intent or bravado will avoid an accident, that's what makes them accidents.

 

[Doug71]

The HSE requires the blade to be guarded at all times including when cutting rebates and grooves etc.

https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis16.pdf

 

[Doug B]

On this alone, I'd say depending on that you are routing a table is safer than doing it handheld. You can use all manner of things to help prevent your digits getting near the bit, and the bit isn't going anywhere other than round and round.

If you're doing it with a palm router instead, it's possible to have a moment, the bit climbs and then attacks your hand.

As with every tool, it's a matter of using it as safely as possible. I say this as a moron who's used a table saw with no guard on for things other than just making housings in the past.

I reckon more have done dumb things that would care to admit it.

I’m the opposite with this I much prefer using a router hand held as both of my hands are firmly attached to the router handles & as long as they stay that way are not in the path of the router bit.
In a table on the other hand I am pushing the work piece towards the bit & if something slips etc I’m on a path towards the cutter even when using push sticks.

 

[Jacob]

.Th

The HSE requires the blade to be guarded at all times including when cutting rebates and grooves etc.
https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis16.pdf

This is "guidance" and "should be used" is the operative expression, not "must be used".
In other words you can do what you like but are advised to use their suggestions, or if not to use alternative safety measures along the same lines or better. It mentions alternative guarding if the crown guard is taken off.
Some of their advice is not that good - an inadequate design of push stick and no suggestion of using two - which is probably the single most effective safety measure for TS, planer or spindle. And two drawings show hands on the workpiece where a second push stick should be used.

 

[Cabinetman]

Just mention I’ve started a new thread on push sticks, mine were getting a bit chewed up at the sacrificial end so it was about time I made some new ones. Ian

 

[MARK.B.]

Like a five year old that has done something wrong he waffles on and on trying desperatly to shift the blame onto something/anything else other than his own part in the accident. Had a gaurd been in place then the world could have been spared 12 min's and 45 second's of self pity . Thought that the bit where he would guilt trip his as yet unborn child with the message that he lost the use of his fingers because he was making a closet for him/her was just . That incident was always going to happen sooner or later and he was damn lucky to only have the injuries he did get, it could have been so much worse.

 

[Jacob]

Just mention I’ve started a new thread on push sticks, mine were getting a bit chewed up at the sacrificial end so it was about time I made some new ones. Ian

I use two of these, and copies made of ply or mdf. Should be a British Standard design perhaps. They are cleverer than they look!

 

[shed9]

Thought that the bit where he would guilt trip his as yet unborn child with the message that he lost the use of his fingers because he was making a closet for him/her was just .

I picked up on that little nugget as well. To already have that thought process in mind says loads about his potential as a parent.

 

[Jacob]

Here's another mad yank. He's going on about the dangers of kick back (real, but usually not serious with small components and small machines) but he's using gripper blocks - which are the cause of the kickback and ALSO very nearly result in a nasty cut - which he blames on the kick back, not the use of grippers. He worked out why he needed a riving knife in place, but hasn't worked out why he should be using push sticks

 

[TheTiddles]

We all know the answer to the dado, tennon etc. argument about removing the guard... you fit a different one straight away. Anything to the contrary is basically just a straw-man argument, this comes up about once a month or so?

Does anyone remember the dude that cut the end off his little kid’s thumb off cutting rebates on an unguarded saw? The USA forum where it was posted was full of people saying well done to the little chap for being so brave at the hospital after such an unfortunate “accident”, the British response was slightly different!

Aidan