Japanese Saws vs. Western Saws

[Mittlefehldt]

Okay stepping up to the microphone the infamous ham fisted gorilla, albiet a light weight gorilla.

I was not going to reply to this thread unti Sgian Dubh did and confirmed what I thought. I have tried them never a high end one to be sure, but I did try them, and found them lacking. The saw I used the longest was the LV dovetail saw which worked okay in white pine but as soon as I tried it on red oak, white ash or walnut it started losing teeth, they seemed inordinatly brittle.

After replacing three blades in a year I replaced it with a Pax, yes a Pax, rip cut dovetail saw and have been content ever since.

MY objection like Alf, is that I cannot sharpen a Japanese saw myself, and I object to the throw away blades on principal, reduce, reuse, recycle.

James

 

[ByronBlack]

James, the theory is; because the blades are so hard, they'll very rarely need sharpening, hence why most blades aren't made to be easily sharpened. Instead, after a long period of use you'll send the blade away to be done properly - this apparently only needs to be done on the rare occasion.

I also had some broken teeth on my first dozuki - this was because my model wich was a cheap basic one was for softwood only, hence when used on harder wood, the teeth break.

Since the thread, i've done a bit more research and have found that the higher-end saws are actually suitable for hardwoods and less likely to break.

I guess like most tools, the budget range is what most have for their first experience of and are ultimately disapointed after not getting the results that others say they get from their saw which almost always is one of the higher-end better made saws.

It's exactly the same as western saws. I can go and buy a cheap gentlemans saw and get frustrated with it, or I can buy a lie Nielsen saw and have out of the box performance.

To judge any tool on the budget range offering isn't a true representation of the tool as a whole. It would be like judging an LN bench plane on a new cheap Stanley performance.

 

[Paul Chapman]

I've never really understood the Japanese way of woodworking :? :? Whether it's sawing, planing, chiseling, sharpening, work holding, or even whether to stand up or sit on the floor, they seem to go out of their way to find the most cack-handed way of doing everything. Some people seem to love it and produce good results, but it's not for me.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Anonymous]

Some snaps here I took in Japan during brief visit last year. I saw a lot of architectural woodwork but no tools or workshops - will do that next time.
Anyway there's nothing here below which could not be done with budget tools :lol:

cheers
Jacob
PS same trip went to Tasmania where there is a whole lot of "fine woodwork" of the type so admired on this group i.e. mostly immaculate small cabinets

 

[promhandicam]

. . .I have found that a Japanese saw is fantastic at swatting flys/wasps in mid air, once you get your eye in a quick manic flailing action and you usually down the little bug**rs. :lol:

Senior - We seem to have a lot of flies at the moment and so I'm very interested in your technique and choice of saw. Do you whack them with the side of the saw or on the edge, thus impaling them on the teeth? If the later, then presumably a Ryoba style with teeth on both sides would be an advantage. If you are getting them side on do you recommend a saw with a Dozuki (with a back) which is a bit more rigid or a Kabota (no back) which would give a bit more of a whipping action.

Decisions decisions :wink:

One place to look for reasonable priced Japanese saws (and chisels) at the moment is here where a 300mm 12Tpi ZED Speed Kabata Nokogiri is on offer for £12.50 plus postage. I think that ZED are a reasonable make. The seller is reputable and people here have been very happy with the Japanese tools he sells.

Steve
(no connection with Peter (thegoodtoolguy) Veal other than being a satisfied customer)

 

[dchenard]

That one. I bought it when it first came out, and use it regularly; probably close to every session in the shop. I like it quite a bit for certain jobs, including quite a few crosscut ones like sawing shoulders of tenons, which it does extremely well in spite of being "rip". I use about 5 saws very very regularly (I do about 80% of all sawing by hand). It is a very good saw, but "blow away" the others? I can't agree; it has its positive points and negative points.

OK, entertain me... What are its negative points?

DC

 

[dchenard]

Jacob, what kind of work do you intend to use your "test Japanese saw" for? That would help in determining the right saw for you :wink:

DC

At the moment window frames from 2 1/2" redwood, 1/2" m&tenons, but have several hardwood restoration jobs on the side. I'd want 12" tenon saw equivalent I suppose, or "general purpose".
Needless to say I do the bulk with machines but a fair bit of hand work nevertheless.

cheers
Jacob

For a general purpose saw, the Z Saw dozuki that I referred to earlier in this thread would be a good all around saw. It's filed crosscut, but will rip in a pinch, albeit more slowly than a rip saw. And it's inexpensive. I have it and it works very well.

However, the spine might get in your way if sawing 2 1/2" thick stock, in which case a ryoba or kataba would be preferable. Axminster has a selection at affordable prices.

DC

 

[dchenard]

Okay stepping up to the microphone the infamous ham fisted gorilla, albiet a light weight gorilla.

I was not going to reply to this thread unti Sgian Dubh did and confirmed what I thought. I have tried them never a high end one to be sure, but I did try them, and found them lacking. The saw I used the longest was the LV dovetail saw which worked okay in white pine but as soon as I tried it on red oak, white ash or walnut it started losing teeth, they seemed inordinatly brittle.

After replacing three blades in a year I replaced it with a Pax, yes a Pax, rip cut dovetail saw and have been content ever since.

MY objection like Alf, is that I cannot sharpen a Japanese saw myself, and I object to the throw away blades on principal, reduce, reuse, recycle.

James

Was it this one?

That's the first one I bought, and it is indeed fragile. I think the steel is hardened beyond its capabilities, making the teeth brittle. For the record I have not broken teeth on the other dozuki I own or owned. I would suggest you try again with that Z Saw I mentioned, Langevin & Forest sells it, and other outlets I'm sure.

DC

 

[ike]

Byron wrote,

James, the theory is; because the blades are so hard, they'll very rarely need sharpening, hence why most blades aren't made to be easily sharpened. Instead, after a long period of use you'll send the blade away to be done properly - this apparently only needs to be done on the rare occasion.

I'd love to get my saws sharpened. How does one sharpen the really hard teeth? A saw file wouldn't work would it?. Can you give me your contact where I can get this done. Would be great to get more life out of the saws.

cheers,

Ike

 

[ByronBlack]

Hi Ike,

I really wouldn't know where you send the saw blades, I didn't get that far in my research, mearly that was the theory behind it. If anyone does know, could you please tell us, as i'm sure it would be very handy!

 

[Paul Kierstead]

OK, entertain me... What are its negative points?

I'm not in the business of entertainment. I'd suggest that if you have found no negative points, you have used it very very narrowly, purpose wise. I'll hit just the high points:

- The set is too fine for some purposes. Very fine set means very little steering ability (Japanese or Western.) This is not a bit problem in shallow cuts, but is a big problem in deeper ones, like actual ripping.

- In general, the pull action is problematic in seeing a line. Partly this is a problem with our methods I expect, but combining western fixtures and methods with Japanese tools works sometimes, is a pain others. If you are sawing down a dovetail in thin stock, this doesn't matter at all. For actual rip, or on wider stock, not so good.

- Contrary to its stated purpose, it is terrible for all but the smallest tenon cheeks. It can't be steered, it is too fine, it is much to shallow, and in general performs poorly making cuts where the blade is in more then 1/2" of material, IMO. For thin dovetails, I find it fabulous. For thicker ones, I don't care for it so much.

- The ergonomics are sub-optimal for western sawing set-ups. For example, on a sawbench, the material tends to vibrate more since the forces are upwards, flexing the material. I will saw a reversed saw-hook works better then expected.

Those are just a few. I still use it plenty; it has its place. Most good saws can find purposes well suited to them.

 

[ByronBlack]

Just a small point. I find stock in a vice moves less against the tension of the saw when pulling than it does when being pushed and I feel I have more control of the cut on the pull stroke than the push stroke.

 

[Anonymous]

Just a small point. I find stock in a vice moves less against the tension of the saw when pulling than it does when being pushed and I feel I have more control of the cut on the pull stroke than the push stroke.

No prob with ordinary bench hooks for crosscutting or saw horses for ripping.
How would you rip boards or crosscut bigger timbers as one would with western saw and saw horses i.e. fast, easy but energetic?
Wouldn't the workpiece be lifting off with a pull saw?
Can you give it max power on the pull stroke?
Somehow visualise cutting ones knee on a regular basis. :roll:
Only just recovering from falling off me bike!

cheers
Jacob

 

[engineer one]

you have to see a japanese master at work to understand what is needed, but.

the japanese have traditionally had small workshops and because amongst other things of earthquakes and typhoons and sunamis' tended not to have too many possessions that could be thrown about and through their paper screens. thus they have different style of bench. in addition at home they tend to sit more than we,so are more used to sitting to work.

like all things it is practice :twisted:

i say it comes back to one thing, if you have learnt on sharp decent euro saw, then in general you will find japanese/pull saws more difficult to use.
if however you are starting out, or have only used blunt euor saws, then it is more easy to use the japanese saws. you get used to the rythym, and also holding it away from the blade. however they are more difficult to saw in a straight line if you are not used to it, but their back saws have spines, so make it a little easier.

since i can't saw properly yet, because of lack of practice, then i find now i am using both types. depending on what i am doing. mind you i have only two euro saws an ln dovetail, and an old toga that colin c sharpened for me, before that, i had major problems using euro saws.

so i must look for a longer euro rip, and see how i can work with it.
but for down and dirty work out of the shop, shark saws get the bits made smaller quickly :lol:

paul :wink:

 

[dchenard]

OK, entertain me... What are its negative points?

I'm not in the business of entertainment. I'd suggest that if you have found no negative points, you have used it very very narrowly, purpose wise. I'll hit just the high points:

- The set is too fine for some purposes. Very fine set means very little steering ability (Japanese or Western.) This is not a bit problem in shallow cuts, but is a big problem in deeper ones, like actual ripping.

- In general, the pull action is problematic in seeing a line. Partly this is a problem with our methods I expect, but combining western fixtures and methods with Japanese tools works sometimes, is a pain others. If you are sawing down a dovetail in thin stock, this doesn't matter at all. For actual rip, or on wider stock, not so good.

- Contrary to its stated purpose, it is terrible for all but the smallest tenon cheeks. It can't be steered, it is too fine, it is much to shallow, and in general performs poorly making cuts where the blade is in more then 1/2" of material, IMO. For thin dovetails, I find it fabulous. For thicker ones, I don't care for it so much.

- The ergonomics are sub-optimal for western sawing set-ups. For example, on a sawbench, the material tends to vibrate more since the forces are upwards, flexing the material. I will saw a reversed saw-hook works better then expected.

Those are just a few. I still use it plenty; it has its place. Most good saws can find purposes well suited to them.

Well... Taking your points in order:

- The narrow set is a good thing. True, it makes the saw less "steerable", and that forces the user to nail the cut. A saw with lots of set is like a car with loose steering, it will swerve all over the road. The downside of being able to steer a saw is that you need to cut very precisely otherwise the saw will steer itself off course and/or make a ragged cut.

- pull action is problematic in seeing a line: I'm not sure what you are talking about here, sawdust obscuring the line or the saw itself blocking the view, I sometimes blow the dust off the line, but western saws are not immune to this problem either. But in any case this is a general issue and not something specific to the particular saw that is the object of this discussion.

- terrible for all but the smallest tenon cheeks: I won't argue here until I cut more tenons with mine, but what I said above regarding set applies here too.

- ergonomics are sub-optimal for western sawing set-ups: again, this is a general issue, not specific to the specific model. One can't assume that using pull-stroke saws on push-stroke jigs and fixtures will work seamlessly. I made myself a "reverse" bench hook that works pretty well.

I'll do more tests and report back.

DC

 

[Paul Kierstead]

- The narrow set is a good thing. True, it makes the saw less "steerable", and that forces the user to nail the cut. A saw with lots of set is like a car with loose steering, it will swerve all over the road. The downside of being able to steer a saw is that you need to cut very precisely otherwise the saw will steer itself off course and/or make a ragged cut.

No, it is a good thing sometimes. Other times it is a massive PITA. More set doesn't cause the saw to wander exactly; more like the user has to steer more accurately throughout the cut. So with little set you have to start out right, but are ok once you get going. With more set you have more leeway starting, but have to be more careful as you go. In practice with something like dovetails, your first cut (lets say tails) a small set is great since it is very important to get a straight cut (especially if you don't pare, and you don't need to using such a fine saw) and not really all that important if it is at 7 degrees or 7.5 degrees. When you cut the second piece (lets say pins), you really need to follow the line in order to match the first; then you'll tend to find some steer-ability good, since it is really hard to nail the direction right at the outset. So a good dovetail saw will try to balance these two things, having less set then your typical saw but still enough to give some steering. This saw does not strike a good balance in my opinion.

Yes, quite a few of my comments are not specific to that saw, but it doesn't matter; it is an issue with the saw anyway. I could also provide a good list of failings of the LN dovetail saw (very notably, I find it an inch or two too short, one of the strengths of the Dozuki under discussion) as well. Again, I like the Dozuki, I just object to it's characterization of "blowing away" the others. And as I said, I use mine very regularly (though not often for dovetails, unless in very thin stock, then I love it much more then the LN)

 

[Scrit]

I'm finding this a fascinating discussion, gents. Thank you for such a lively debate. I feel I've learned a bit here. If I might make a few (probably inappropriate points):

Very fine set means very little steering ability (Japanese or Western.) This is not a bit problem in shallow cuts, but is a big problem in deeper ones, like actual ripping.

I'd have to agree there from using European saws. There's certainly a finite limit how deep I want to saw with my finest saw (probably the cheapish Eberle Blitz I use from time to time)

In general, the pull action is problematic in seeing a line. Partly this is a problem with our methods I expect......

I can think of two saws I use which work on the pull stroke - my rarely used wooden bow saw and my coping saw. I don't find changing from a push stroke to a pull stroke difficult. I am, however, still bothered about wrecking a good JS by starting on a push stroke, Western style

The ergonomics are sub-optimal for western sawing set-ups.

This is one of the points which does concern me. I've seen Japanese-American woodworkers in San Francisco more or less sitting on the floor, or a very low bench, to do work and holding the material with a combination of things - including feet. I'm not sure I'm ready for that! Richard's comments about whacking his elbow seem to me to be indicative of a mismatch between the western bench and the Japanese style of saw/usage and I think I may need to experiment a bit to see if I can co-exist with this potential "cultural difference"

Scrit

 

[engineer one]

glad you find this can of worms interesting scrit :lol: :twisted:

to me it is true that you get more sawdust on the line with a japanese saw rather than a euro one. obvious really the saw is pulling the sawdust back in the action. in principle the push saw sends it away.

however recently in one of the popular woodworking acticles by chris swartz, he was talking about making a circular kind of motion with a push saw would make sawing easier, and also move sawdust more easily.

what is perhaps more interesting is why so many of the cheaper japanese saws have westernised handles. and i think this kind of defeats some of the design capabilities. don't think that you can properly combine both technologies. :roll:

paul :wink:

 

[Scrit]

...he was talking about making a circular kind of motion with a push saw would make sawing easier, and also move sawdust more easily......

Oddly enough I was quickly cutting-up some stickers this afternoon and realised that I was using the kind of motion you were ytalking about - only because the labourer I had working for me commented on it. I'd never thought it before.

And I don't think it's a can of worms, either, Paul. I find the differences of opinion on the subject very enlightening. As a result I find that my thoughts on the subject have become much more sharply defined.

Scrit

 

[ByronBlack]

It has been a great thread. And one that has made me research more into japanese tools and the theory behind their design, so much so i'm thinking of trying a better quality Dozuki for cutting the tenons on my workbench project.

Its also refreshing to see Scrit asking some questions for a change, instead of being the all-knowing and all-seeing omnipresent dictionary of everything that we have all grown to enjoy (And I mean all that in a good way - not sure how it sounds typed out..)