japanese chisel problem- tool or user?

[markturner]

I know, almost certainly user ! let me explain - I have just got a set of these from Rutlands, these: http://www.rutlands.co.uk/hand-tools/ch ... -chiselsse:

I am new to using this type of chisels, but have read great things about them. I am a carpenter of 30 years experience, albeit it mostly in the heavier end of the trade rather than fine cabintry, which I am pursuing now as a hobby, so I do feel I know my way around a tool and am not a novice by any means. However, the first time I used 2 of the chisels, both of them broke - I mean one the corner of the blade snapped off when I was carefully paring the corner of a rebate and the other last night when I was removing the remains of some beech from a mortice. I had made several cuts on the table saw, 40mm deep, leaving 1 - 2 millimteres of beech between each cut, then I started to remove the pieces by cutting away with the chisels from the end. The first tap of the hammer and a small section of the blade edge in the middle where it struct the beech chipped away.

i realise they are more brittle than normal chisels, but surely this is not normal or right? Or should I only use them on really fine delicate work? Most of what I do is hardwood work, so I need a very good sharp set of chisels.

Cheers, Mark

 

[Modernist]

Hi - I'm sorry to say I had exactly the same experience as you although from a different supplier. One outcome is that it is better to hone a single 30 deg bevel rather than grind at 25 deg so you get maximum support for the edge. I ended up selling them as I also found the handles small and uncomfortable to use.

I do use Japanese paring chisels and recently bought an excellent one with a long wooden handle which is never struck. I think if it is ground/honed to 30 deg and still breaks up in hand use I would send them back.

There is no doubt that the Japanese construction gives a better edge but you have to look a the whole picture.

 

[Jacob]

They are designed to be hit with a hammer i.e. heavy work. Send them back.

 

[bugbear]

I know, almost certainly user ! let me explain - I have just got a set of these from Rutlands, these: http://www.rutlands.co.uk/hand-tools/ch ... -chiselsse:

I am new to using this type of chisels, but have read great things about them. I am a carpenter of 30 years experience, albeit it mostly in the heavier end of the trade rather than fine cabintry, which I am pursuing now as a hobby, so I do feel I know my way around a tool and am not a novice by any means. However, the first time I used 2 of the chisels, both of them broke - I mean one the corner of the blade snapped off when I was carefully paring the corner of a rebate and the other last night when I was removing the remains of some beech from a mortice. I had made several cuts on the table saw, 40mm deep, leaving 1 - 2 millimteres of beech between each cut, then I started to remove the pieces by cutting away with the chisels from the end. The first tap of the hammer and a small section of the blade edge in the middle where it struct the beech chipped away.

i realise they are more brittle than normal chisels, but surely this is not normal or right? Or should I only use them on really fine delicate work? Most of what I do is hardwood work, so I need a very good sharp set of chisels.

Cheers, Mark

These are defective - try searching youtube for Japanese carpenters at work; the chisels are meant for real loading.

BugBear

 

[woodbloke]

I know, almost certainly user ! let me explain - I have just got a set of these from Rutlands, these: http://www.rutlands.co.uk/hand-tools/ch ... -chiselsse:

I am new to using this type of chisels, but have read great things about them. I am a carpenter of 30 years experience, albeit it mostly in the heavier end of the trade rather than fine cabintry, which I am pursuing now as a hobby, so I do feel I know my way around a tool and am not a novice by any means. However, the first time I used 2 of the chisels, both of them broke - I mean one the corner of the blade snapped off when I was carefully paring the corner of a rebate and the other last night when I was removing the remains of some beech from a mortice. I had made several cuts on the table saw, 40mm deep, leaving 1 - 2 millimteres of beech between each cut, then I started to remove the pieces by cutting away with the chisels from the end. The first tap of the hammer and a small section of the blade edge in the middle where it struct the beech chipped away.

i realise they are more brittle than normal chisels, but surely this is not normal or right? Or should I only use them on really fine delicate work? Most of what I do is hardwood work, so I need a very good sharp set of chisels.

Cheers, Mark

I use these chisels all the time and have never had a problem with them. Mine are from Workshop Heaven and can take a lot of punishement, but I always use a single bevel at 30deg for anything struck with a hammer and another single bevel of 25deg for those that are just used by hand only...no tapping. If the handle hoops cause discomfort for paring, just cut them off and dowel on an extra piece...see here to see my dovetail paring chisels. It's also important to never use them with a levering action as that's almost guaranteed to chip the edge. With the right honing regime though, I've found that they'll take and keep, a much better edge than a Western chisel - Rob

 

[János]

Hello,

do not take gifts from foreigners... Japanese chisels were developed to match the circumstances and requirements of a specific environ. Japanese carpenters use quite wet softwoods for the construction of traditional timber-frame houses. These chisels were developed exactly to that purpose, they can be honed to a keen and very sharp edge, to produce clean cuts in soft and spongy woods. To be able to hold such an edge they are hardened to almost the "hardenability" limits of carbon steel, in the range of HRC 64 and up. But in that range of hardness steel behaves almost like glass, it becomes brittle and fragile. This brittleness does not matter till you use the tool for its intended purpose: to cut very soft woods. But these tools are unsuitable to use on dry hardwoods, except for very light hand paring cuts. You have driven yours into beech...

Buy a well made set of European style chisels: they were developed for Western style cabinetwork.

Have a nice day,

János

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Japanese chisels were developed to match the circumstances and requirements of a specific environ. Japanese carpenters use quite wet softwoods for the construction of traditional timber-frame houses.

Not true. Japanese woodworkers use hardwood as much as any other.

These look like Iyoroi, which I have used for about 15 years in hard Australian hardwoods. In fact I have them especially to work in hardwood! They take and hold an edge better than just about anything else. I have bench- and dovetail chisels, which get wacked very hard with a gennou. These have bevels at 30 degrees. Are yours at 30 degrees? I also have slicks (paring chisels) at 25 degrees. These blades are quite thin. In all my years of using Japanese blades I have never had one chip on me. That chisel is defective - send it back. Send the lot back as they may have come from the same poorly hardened batch.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[woodbloke]

Hello,

do not take gifts from foreigners... Japanese chisels were developed to match the circumstances and requirements of a specific environ. Japanese carpenters use quite wet softwoods for the construction of traditional timber-frame houses. These chisels were developed exactly to that purpose, they can be honed to a keen and very sharp edge, to produce clean cuts in soft and spongy woods. To be able to hold such an edge they are hardened to almost the "hardenability" limits of carbon steel, in the range of HRC 64 and up. But in that range of hardness steel behaves almost like glass, it becomes brittle and fragile. This brittleness does not matter till you use the tool for its intended purpose: to cut very soft woods. But these tools are unsuitable to use on dry hardwoods, except for very light hand paring cuts. You have driven yours into beech...

Buy a well made set of European style chisels: they were developed for Western style cabinetwork.

Have a nice day,

János

Sorry... complete and utter tosh. The Japanese use plenty of hardwood as well as softwood. Japanese chisels work beautifully in hard and soft woods. I can quite cheerfully thump my bench chisels (hardened to RC68) with a big Japanese hammer thirty or so times into English Oak without any degration or blade chipping. That Japanese chisels can only be used in softer woods is a common and often misplaced assumption which has no basis in actual use - Rob

 

[bugbear]

Hello,

do not take gifts from foreigners... Japanese chisels were developed to match the circumstances and requirements of a specific environ. Japanese carpenters use quite wet softwoods for the construction of traditional timber-frame houses. These chisels were developed exactly to that purpose, they can be honed to a keen and very sharp edge, to produce clean cuts in soft and spongy woods. To be able to hold such an edge they are hardened to almost the "hardenability" limits of carbon steel, in the range of HRC 64 and up. But in that range of hardness steel behaves almost like glass, it becomes brittle and fragile. This brittleness does not matter till you use the tool for its intended purpose: to cut very soft woods. But these tools are unsuitable to use on dry hardwoods, except for very light hand paring cuts. You have driven yours into beech...

Buy a well made set of European style chisels: they were developed for Western style cabinetwork.

Have a nice day,

János

Japanese dai makers work in 10 year (and more) seasoned oak!

BugBear

 

[János]

Hello,

A stone to muddy water… So some of you actually retested the hardness of your chisels? Awesome…

But my sentences about Japanese craftsmen and softwoods are true. The main woodworking activity in Japan was timber frame construction. There was no such thing as “cabinetmaking”, simply, because they didn’t use "furniture proper”. Making small boxes from softwood for lacquering, or a few shelves from zelkowa are no real base to talk about “Japanese cabinetmaking” or such, and about “plenty” of hardwood used. That is simply not true. The main purpose of these chisels is working softwoods. But, carefully used, they are capable to work hardwoods.

Woodworking is not, and never was science: it is craft, loaded with personal opinions and experiences, and lot of myths, mostly based on beliefs, lore, and misunderstanding. For example, in fact, simple, unalloyed carbon steels have a maximum hardness of just under HRC 66. And in that fully hardened state they are almost useless, and prone to stress cracking. There is time to recheck your tool myths…

I am a great and longtime admirer of the Japanese culture of wood and woodcraft, and a cabinetmaker myself, but that is no excuse for me to lose or give up my objectivity.

Just use what equipment or tool you prefer, but do not blame the maker if your choice was wrong.

Have a nice day,

János

 

[markturner]

not sure what the bevel is, as they seemed pretty sharp as delivered and like I say, i have only used them twice. does anyone else have experience of these particular brand from rutlands?

Cheers, mark

 

[Jacob]

.....
Just use what equipment or tool you prefer, but do not blame the maker if your choice was wrong.

Have a nice day,

János

Right or wrong (János sounds convincing I must say) you can blame the retailer for not knowing and not passing on the information. Send em back!

PS I sometimes wonder if people don't realise that it is the retailer who is responsible for faulty goods. It's up to them to deal with the makers, not our problem at all. Do Rutlands say anything about only suitable for softwood etc? No? Send em back.

So the answer to the question "japanese chisel problem- tool or user?" is "retailer".

 

[woodbloke]

Hello,

There was no such thing as “cabinetmaking”, simply, because they didn’t use "furniture proper”. Making small boxes from softwood for lacquering, or a few shelves from zelkowa are no real base to talk about “Japanese cabinetmaking” or such, and about “plenty” of hardwood used. That is simply not true.

Wrong again :roll: ...Japanese tansu certainly aren't 'small boxes'

Here are just three images at random of classic tansu, all made from hardwood. A little research before you post might be advantagous. 'Nuff said on the matter - Rob

 

[Alf]

But my sentences about Japanese craftsmen and softwoods are true. The main woodworking activity in Japan was timber frame construction. There was no such thing as “cabinetmaking”, simply, because they didn’t use "furniture proper”. Making small boxes from softwood for lacquering, or a few shelves from zelkowa are no real base to talk about “Japanese cabinetmaking” or such, and about “plenty” of hardwood used. That is simply not true. The main purpose of these chisels is working softwoods. But, carefully used, they are capable to work hardwoods.

Now it may be that Rutlands are selling the Japanese equivalent of the plastic handled chisel designed for site work (highly prized by my local plumber to bash out the plaster around the water mains) - it wouldn't surprise me - but the Japanese do make "real" furniture and they do use hard woods. Your statement is the equivalent of seeing my builder use his blunt #4 to plane up the garage doors he made, which he then held together with at least two whole tubes of expanding glue, and then stating that, for instance, Robert Ingham is a myth.

'Course, the irony is I tried Japanese chisels and couldn't be doing with them at all. But that was me and not the chisels; certainly didn't have the difficulty Mark reports. Sounds like a send 'em back situation to me.

 

[Racers]

Hi,

Something from Rutlands turns out to be faulty :shock: that must be a first :wink:


Send them back and get your money back.


Pete

 

[markturner]

Well, I thought Rutlands was a pretty good site....until i discovered classichandtools.co.uk...!!! I have got a fair bit of stuff from them, mostly veritas, and they are pretty good for choice, but its like driving a ford and then a BMW, That's unanimous then, I will send them back. Is there a particular brand or can I rely on the ones at classic to be the best ( he has some recommended by David Charlesworth) ?

Cheers, Mark

 

[Jacob]

..Is there a particular brand ..... ?

Cheers, Mark

Stanley 5001 (I think, I'll check tomorrow) black handles. Marples and Stanley blue handles. Oldish.
New - Marples, Bahco etc. You can buy a whole set of **** hot top quality chisels for the price of just one trendy fashionable bit of ****!
I bougt a set of these http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-ax ... prod31355/
a set for less than half the price of just one trendy etc. They are OK but I'd spend a bit more, say £10 each max.

 

[jimi43]

So I take it you don't like Japanese chisels then Jacob?

Jim

 

[Harbo]

I have a set of 5001 & 5002 bought in the 60's
The steel is like soft cheese - must have been made when the workers were always on strike?


Rod

 

[Jacob]

So I take it you don't like Japanese chisels then Jacob?

Jim

Nothing against them at all - but so many of these expensive options turn out to be problematic. They look nice but you don't get much for the money even though you are paying 10 times the price of perfectly OK but boring ordinary equivalents.