japanese chisel problem- tool or user?

[Jacob]

Does it make any difference to the woodwork, which chisels you use? Can you tell by looking (other than with a microscope)?
I suspect not, in which case just buy the cheapest!

 

[János]

Hello,

Dear Stu, so are you selling these tools? So you have had financial interest in their market success. Perhaps that simple fact might drop some shadows on your objectivity. But nobody said here that historically Japanese tools were developed only for softwoods. What have been told: they were developed to use in softwoods. And that is a historical fact.

Any woodworking tool can be tuned or adjusted to suit a purpose or use better. And Japanese toolmakers of our age do exactly the same: they temper the blades to a little lower hardness, recommed a larger than usual bevel angle, and so on. In that way, their tools are better suited for Occidental users and hardwoods. And their marketing guys do a very good job in disseminating myths about their products. They do more harm than good, as the lore they disseminate bars the dispersion of proper and true knowledge, and rises expectations no tool can fulfill. And that is dishonest.

Best wishes,

János

 

[Schtoo]

Does it make any difference to the woodwork, which chisels you use? Can you tell by looking (other than with a microscope)?
I suspect not, in which case just buy the cheapest!

That's true, the wood doesn't care.

But use a good Japanese chisel (and I mean, spending over 40 quid on the thing), and you will never look at another chisel the same way again.



Having actually made a living 'on the tools', I know when a chunk of metal is letting you earn a paycheck, the cheapest VERY rapidly becomes expensive in time, money and frustration. Granted, many who are reading this are not in that position, but having something better than common cheapo garbage is rather nice at times.

But if you can't appreciate that, I'm afraid there's not much hope and anything I say will fall on deaf ears.

Sorry.

 

[Schtoo]

Hello,

Dear Stu, so are you selling these tools? So you have had financial interest in their market success. Perhaps that simple fact might drop some shadows on your objectivity. But nobody said here that historically Japanese tools were developed only for softwoods. What have been told: they were developed to use in softwoods. And that is a historical fact.

Any woodworking tool can be tuned or adjusted to suit a purpose or use better. And Japanese toolmakers of our age do exactly the same: they temper the blades to a little lower hardness, recommed a larger than usual bevel angle, and so on. In that way, their tools are better suited for Occidental users and hardwoods. And their marketing guys do a very good job in disseminating myths about their products. They do more harm than good, as the lore they disseminate bars the dispersion of proper and true knowledge, and rises expectations no tool can fulfill. And that is dishonest.

Best wishes,

János

Yes, I sell the tools.

But lets go back a little, shall we?

János
Post subject: Re: japanese chisel problem- tool or user?
PostPosted: Mar 17, 2011 8:07pm
Offline
Woodworker

Joined: Dec 08, 2010 11:10pm
Posts: 74
Hello,

do not take gifts from foreigners... Japanese chisels were developed to match the circumstances and requirements of a specific environ. Japanese carpenters use quite wet softwoods for the construction of traditional timber-frame houses. These chisels were developed exactly to that purpose, they can be honed to a keen and very sharp edge, to produce clean cuts in soft and spongy woods. To be able to hold such an edge they are hardened to almost the "hardenability" limits of carbon steel, in the range of HRC 64 and up. But in that range of hardness steel behaves almost like glass, it becomes brittle and fragile. This brittleness does not matter till you use the tool for its intended purpose: to cut very soft woods. But these tools are unsuitable to use on dry hardwoods, except for very light hand paring cuts. You have driven yours into beech...

Buy a well made set of European style chisels: they were developed for Western style cabinetwork.

Have a nice day,

János

Nobody, not even yourself, suggested these chisels were for working in softwoods, not hardwoods?

Really?

To claim that as true, you'd have to call yourself, I don't know, dishonest? That'd be nice if you'd do that, and would save me the trouble of doing it myself.


On the 'myth and lore' espoused by many existing sellers of Japanese tools, I don't play that game. Sorry to disappoint. If you're willing to call my objectivity into question, I'd strongly suggest you'd look in the mirror first.

Have a nice day won't you.

Stu.

 

[Harbo]

Hi Stu - welcome to the Forum - it seems that you are bashing your head against a brickwall with certain people?

I have always been open minded when buying tools - I read about them on reviews and other peoples experiences and if possible try them out. I cannot say that I have read much advertising re. Japanese tools, so wonder who all these mythical Marketing characters are?

I am afraid with Jacob (Mr Grimsdale or whatever other name he adopts) you are "against" somebody who always disparages anything other than cheap and cheerful?

I have a wide variety of chisels:- Western (old and new) and some Japanese (supposedly New Old Stock bought on Ebay and a set of Blue Steel Matsumura ones that came out tops in a FWW Review).
I do most of my work in English Hardwoods and apart from some crappy Stanleys, I have never had any problems with any of them!

I also have a Japanese smoothing plane which works amazingly well on hardwoods too!

To imply that Stu is being dishonest in his views because he has a commercial interest is an unfounded accusation. Any salesperson who sells crap will have a very short time span especially in todays market. And any Tool seller worth his/hers salt is going to research the products they sell especially if they want to make a living out it?
I do not understand where you are coming from Janos - have you any commercial interests in Western Tools?

Rod

 

[János]

Hello,

There is no merit in taking up dialogue with somebody, who intentionally and purposefully misinterprets what has been said.

The members are intelligent enough to decide for themselves the meaning of what I have said. And I have said that with two decades of cabinetmaking behind my back, and based my opinion on personal experience, and referenced it to written and documented scientific facts about the development of Japanese woodcraft. Thousands of pages were written about the history of Japan and its crafts, especially joinery and woodcraft, so the way is open even to you to hone your knowledge and attitude.

Have a nice day,

János

And to Rod,

No I have no commercial interest in Occidental handtools (how have you got that impression?), and never said, that the Japanese tools are inferior to the Occidental ones… But I am fed up with that stupid and dishonest marketing we are subjected to. And perhaps Stu himself is one of those mythical marketing characters…

Have a nice day,

János

 

[Schtoo]

A dirty little secret is my curse of having a soft spot for NOS Marples Blue Chips...

Love the silly things, I don't know why.

(But I am thankful I'm not wallowing in their glory. I like them, but they aren't the best I have by a long, long way.)

Stu.

Janos,

I don't think I've mis-interpreted anything at all. I am quite sure that you've peddled out a long standing myth about Japanese tools, have been called out on it by at least a half dozen people here before I came along as being blatantly false, and yet still cling to your convictions, whereas most sensible people I've met, even the stubborn ones (and some of them stubborn ones make Japanese tools) would admit that maybe they need to look again at what they believe to be true.

You've avoided doing that, for whatever reason. You've stuck to your guns, and as admirable as that might be, it still doesn't change the simple, undeniable fact that you said, straight up "these tools are unsuitable to use on dry hardwoods". Do I need to quote you again to point this out? Too late, I already did.

And I'll quote you again...

There is no merit in taking up dialogue with somebody, who intentionally and purposefully misinterprets what has been said.

The members are intelligent enough to decide for themselves the meaning of what I have said.

You put it perfectly, thank you very much.

Stu.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

In the interests of self-disclosure ..

Stu is a mate of mine (and will continue to remain so).

I have received advice from him in the past (and will continue to seek it).

I have purchased tools from him (and intend to do so again in the future).

However I stated before Stu visited this forum (Welcome Stu! ccasion5: ) and, in particular, this thread ...

I bought my Japanese chisels expressly with hardwoods in mind. They take and hold an edge that is only rivaled only by the supersteel chisels I am testing out.

My Koyamaichi dovetails chisels are thrashed - because that is sometimes what it takes to chop joints in hard Jarrah and Karri. They have never chipped an edge.

Review here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReview ... isels.html

They are excellent value-for-money, costing about the same as a LN. I could have instead purchased LNs. I preferred to get the Koyamaichi. Surely that says something.

They are not the only Japanese chisels I own. I have been using mainly Iyoroi for about 15 years. My latest set are parers (slicks) that arrived recently ... after a wait of 3 years. I sold off a prized collection of Bergs (among other tools) to afford them. They are worth it. Are they ever!

Behold the Kiyohisa slicks ...

Oh, and they work well on hardwood as well ... just thought you'd want to know ...

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[woodbloke]

Janos,

I don't think I've mis-interpreted anything at all. I am quite sure that you've peddled out a long standing myth about Japanese tools, have been called out on it by at least a half dozen people here before I came along as being blatantly false, and yet still cling to your convictions, whereas most sensible people I've met, even the stubborn ones (and some of them stubborn ones make Japanese tools) would admit that maybe they need to look again at what they believe to be true.

... it still doesn't change the simple, undeniable fact that you said, straight up "these tools are unsuitable to use on dry hardwoods". Do I need to quote you again to point this out? Too late, I already did.


Stu.

Mr J, might be time for you to fall on your sword :lol: :lol: (assuming of course, it's made from the right steel :-" ) - Rob