Invoice dispute

[Bingy man]

But a good lesson for the future, many of us have learnt the hard way, ignoring good advice or jumping in feet first but it is how we learn and although not so good at the time we look back and think lesson learnt. @Bingy man has the idea, evidence of communication that cannot be disputed.

Totally agree- we have probably all been in the op,s situation at some point in our lives, so easy to take a customer and sometimes friends and relatives at their word never imagining they will rip you off but it happens all to often . As I’m not a large company or anything like that I also ensure the customer pays for materials upfront ( I have no interest in adding a percentage to the materials) so then if by any chance it does go wrong then I loose the labour but not cost of materials as well-thankfully though I have good honest customers and I’ve learned the hard way to explain everything within reason before I commit to the job . Also be sure to include in any quote for work what is not covered -eg rubbish removal or anything outside of your skill set.

 

[TRITON]

Well, if you have invoiced and he doesn’t pay I’d take him through small claims.

Ditto.

 

[Lefley]

For two people per day.
or 48 man hours total.

 

[Glitch]

What is the customer actually disputing?

Is it purely the price, or the quality of materials or workmanship?
Or the product didn't match the design?

Sounds like the customer had a different expectation and only after the product was used did they regret the purchase.

Was the extra bracing needed after the initial installation? The design shows standalone units.

Customer shouldn't have accepted and used the product if they had issues. That will count against them.

 

[Lefley]

Totally agree- we have probably all been in the op,s situation at some point in our lives, so easy to take a customer and sometimes friends and relatives at their word never imagining they will rip you off but it happens all to often . As I’m not a large company or anything like that I also ensure the customer pays for materials upfront ( I have no interest in adding a percentage to the materials) so then if by any chance it does go wrong then I loose the labour but not cost of materials as well-thankfully though I have good honest customers and I’ve learned the hard way to explain everything within reason before I commit to the job . Also be sure to include in any quote for work what is not covered -eg rubbish removal or anything outside of your skill set.

the two times people tried to rip me off in business was friends. Ex-friends.

 

[Dave Moore]

I have a issue with a client not wanting to pay final invoice for a weird job.
he now wants to get other quotes in after the fact of being quoted for 5 units at 1k per unit labour and materials (this was vocally agreed not on paper), and the job being supplied and fulfilled.

The job spec was to back engineer a CrossFit climbing frame from an image supplied.
specs where for it to have a 4.8m rope climbing height. and a round pole 5 ft of the ground for vaulting over.

I designed it for him on CAD, got the go ahead.
got a timber order up for him to pay for. 2k

then supplied a labour bill at the end for 3k

So the actual construction was 6M 9x3s with a halving joint at the top. and a round notch to to take the vaulting pole also set a 15 degrees x20

a 6 inch 1.8m round post at the top with its cheeks notched out at 15 degrees to sit in the A-Frame. x5

6x2 at 3.6 to brace the a frame x10

and 3.6m 4 inch round post screw to sit the notch

Each frame was pre-assembled and bolted then dismantled labled and resembled on the site.

My question is I think at this scale and work load is 1 k per unit unreasonable.

I can't seem to attach a image never used site before only images from a url

all I can do I supply my instagram which has a image of the said frames

https://www.instagram.com/arc_carpentry_and_design/?igshid=OGQ5ZDc2ODk2ZA==

Look on YouTube at Blackbelt Barrister. He has upload a short exactly what you are on about, an unwritten contract.

 

[MikeJhn]

the two times people tried to rip me off in business was friends. Ex-friends.

Even worse then friends is family, they always think you are doing it for nothing.

 

[Jones]

They look quite substantial constructions with some big timbers involved. £1000 each seems reasonable given materials, manufacture and site assembly. I don't think you should bullied into offering a discount after supplying them. Press for payment as others have said. Good luck.

 

[rafezetter]

If the customer agreed, you did the work and he used it, there's little the customer can say in a small claims that will make this go away.

This seems a case of either buyers remorse, or trying to pull a fast one, which has happened to me once.

Having said all that - from what you said you charged £3,000 in labour for 11.5 man days of work - which equates to about £37 hr, which seems a tad high for this sort of work, but again the due diligence for quotes was his responsibility not yours.

 

[Stanleymonkey]

The example from PaulBarnard regarding the computer is an interesting one.

I'm assuming they still have the equipment? Or did you assemble it for the event and then remove it? If you are storing the pieces for them - that would be another issue (storage charges!!) If they have had it disassembled and then accepted it back onto their premise / storage unit that would surely add further weight to your case.

I'm assuming that you don't order custom equipment for a one off event? I would snoop around a little on social media and see if there is any evidence of next season's/year's event being organised and advertised. You may also find that they have loaned the stuff out to another organiser (for a small fee) whilst arguing about the invoice with you.

 

[Fergie 307]

Just remember, if you issue the court notice the worst that can happen is you lose your £150 court fee you won’t get a court order against you. If they lose they get a CCJ against their name, that really screws up your life! Hence the other side will usually see sense and come to the party and settle.

Not strictly accurate, if they lose, but pay the full amount determined by the court within a month, then no CCJ is recorded.
You say you designed it, then got the go ahead. How did they give you the go ahead,was this recorded, e mail or similar, anything like that will help you. Whatever it is they are disputing make sure you have pictures of the issues, or to evidence that there are none. I was involved in a case where "repairs" were carried out to correct alleged damage, very difficult to then prove that the damage didn't exist or was exaggerated. If you haven't got pictures and they now refuse you permission then make sure you have requested the opportunity in writing, and invite them to send you images of the alleged issues. If they are being evasive as to why exactly they feel they should pay, then they may respond to an initial letter and give an explanation. If not then go to the small claims court. They will then be obliged to set out their defence, and explain in detail why they feel they shouldn't pay. If they fail to submit a defence then the court will very probably find in your favour, they certainly will if the other side don't turn up on the day of the hearing, and you might be surprised how often that happens. I have been through this process a number of times, and it is pretty straightforward. Best advice make sure any and every communication is recorded. If you send them anything do it by recorded delivery, and back it up with an e mail including a copy of whatever you have sent them, and the fact that you have done so. As bingy man says, in future make sure you have a record.

 

[topchippyles]

Sorry but you only have yourself to blame a written contract signed by both parties is the first thing should be undertaken before any work commences. There are various way to do this written or electronically. Judge Rinder says it often enough text messages/emails ect all count.

 

[Blackswanwood]

Not strictly accurate, if they lose, but pay the full amount determined by the court within a month, then no CCJ is recorded.

Not strictly accurate. The CCJ is recorded and appears on the credit file immediately. If the monies are subsequently paid within thirty days the court has to be notified by the payer and the credit file will subsequently be amended.

 

[Fergie 307]

Not strictly accurate. The CCJ is recorded and appears on the credit file immediately. If the monies are subsequently paid within thirty days the court has to be notified by the payee and the credit file will subsequently be amended.

In practice of you indicate to the court that you intend to pay the full amount, and do so within the thirty days then it doesn't appear on your credit file. I have personal experience of this where this was explained by the judge. I had actually asked this as, whilst I disputed the amount of the claim, I would rather have paid it than have a CCJ on my credit file with all the hassle that entails. In this instance the dispute was over damage to a vehicle. I did not dispute that I had caused the damage, but the amount being claimed. The claimant had refused what I considered a reasonable offer and so we ended up in court. Essentially the judge found in favour of the claimant, no surprise there as I had never disputed causing the damage, but only ordered me to pay a third of the amount claimed. In this case I paid the money the same day, and no CCJ on my file. I helped someone else with the process in a similar situation, with a similar outcome, and again no CCJ on their credit file. These were in two different court areas, so assume it probably applies across the country. Certainly something to ask if you find yourself in that situation. The way it was explained to me by the judge was that it would be a bad thing if someone felt obliged to pay something they honestly disputed for fear of getting a CCJ.

 

[Fergie 307]

Incidentally I have been on the other side as well, as a complainant. In one case where the court found in my favour and the person paid immediately, they didn't get a CCJ. On the one occasion where the other party lost and paid me by instalments, they did get one. So although the Government website suggests the process works as described by Blackswanwood, ie CCJ recorded immediately and then cancelled if you pay within thirty days, in my experience anyway this isn't what happens in practice.

 

[Blackswanwood]

Incidentally I have been on the other side as well, as a complainant. In one case where the court found in my favour and the person paid immediately, they didn't get a CCJ. On the one occasion where the other party lost and paid me by instalments, they did get one. So although the Government website suggests the process works as described by Blackswanwood, ie CCJ recorded immediately and then cancelled if you pay within thirty days, in my experience anyway this isn't what happens in practice.

I wasn't quoting the Government website - my comment is based on a detailed knowledge of how CCJ's get recorded and removed from credit files (I do this stuff for a living). In your example you concluded payment and telling the court on the day of the judgement. If you hadn't told the court and paid immediately the CCJ would be on the credit file within 24hrs of the court closing their file (usually the same day) - it's an automated process.

Sorry if it appears I'm being pedantic but someone may rely on what they read here and find out to their cost it's not the case. Your point that not acting in a feckless manner and accepting the ruling and paying immediately means a CCJ does not appear on your credit file is correct though.

 

[Lefley]

From the horses mouth

 

[Fergie 307]

I wasn't quoting the Government website - my comment is based on a detailed knowledge of how CCJ's get recorded and removed from credit files (I do this stuff for a living). In your example you concluded payment and telling the court on the day of the judgement. If you hadn't told the court and paid immediately the CCJ would be on the credit file within 24hrs of the court closing their file (usually the same day) - it's an automated process.

Sorry if it appears I'm being pedantic but someone may rely on what they read here and find out to their cost it's not the case. Your point that not acting in a feckless manner and accepting the ruling and paying immediately means a CCJ does not appear on your credit file is correct though.

Not pedantic at all. Just sharing my experience, and very interested to hear your comments, and to stand corrected! In the cases I have referred to payments were made there and then before leaving the court, and confirmed with the court staff, so I suppose that does explain it. Interestingly the judges comment was that the CCJ entry could be avoided if any monies were paid "straight away" I hadn't realised that was meant quite so literally! My view was just pay the money and get it over and done with.
Thanks for the information, and worth knowing that immediate payment can avoid this issue, and that immediate means just that. Out of interest, from your knowledge, what happens if you pay within the thirty days and the court then remove the entry. What effect does that have on your credit rating?

 

[Glitch]

From what I have read if you pay the debt immediately it does not appear on the register of judgments, orders and fines and your credit file. That's if the court know it's paid before they send the update to the register.

If you don't pay immediately it appears on the register and your credit file as a unsatisfied CCJ.

If paid in full within a month of the judgment you can apply to have it removed from the register and your credit file.

If not paid in full within the month (even if you've agreed a payment plan) it stays on the register and your credit file for 6 years.
If paid off during the 6 years you can apply for a certificate of satisfaction and supply proof of payment to have the status changed to Satisfied.

Whether satisfied or unsatisfied it is removed only after the 6 years is up.

 

[artie]

What impact would a ccj have on your credit score?