Invasion of US Capitol building

[Blackswanwood]

I think we covered already in this thread that the bulk of the guns owned in the united states are more or less for leisure or sport. Assault rifle is just branded terminology.

If by “covered it” you mean you gave your opinion it probably is in your essays above somewhere.

An assault rifle is the term commonly used for rifles that can be switched to automatic fire ... i.e. squeeze the trigger and spray bullets. In my view that’s not a requirement in any leisure activity or sport. You may have a different view but I’m not going to be persuaded.

 

[Droogs]

Assault rifle is not a brand it is a military designation for a human killing machine that will provide manual, semi automatic and automatic firing of rounds at a rate between 200 and 600 per minute out to a range of 800m with a spread killing field no greater than 20m at 300m and is shorter than a carbine and longer than a machine pistol. Nowhere is there ever the mention of sport or hunting involved

 

[D_W]

If by “covered it” you mean you gave your opinion it probably is in your essays above somewhere.

An assault rifle is the term commonly used for rifles that can be switched to automatic fire ... i.e. squeeze the trigger and spray bullets. In my view that’s not a requirement in any leisure activity or sport. You may have a different view but I’m not going to be persuaded.

None of the rifles sold as semiautomatics in the US have a switch to just go to automatic fire.

In order for something like that to occur, you have to take the gun apart, modify the trigger sear and then put it back together. That's highly highly illegal and will result in felony jail time.

All of the semiautomatic rifles in the US that aren't owned by someone class III (gun dealers and the few enthusiasts who would subject their living premises to unannounced ATF audits) are one trigger pull, one bullet. Some have manual actions then to cycle and some don't. My point about the bump stock (which is probably an unknown thing there) was that it was a device made to cause the gun recoil to force your finger into the trigger repeatedly, functionally making the gun automatic. While I guess you could call me an advocate for reasonable firearms ownership even though I don't own any at this point, I had my spats with folks who said "the ATF says it's not Class III", in that "ok, it doesn't meet the ATF letter of the law definition so they're ignoring logic". Obama couldn't make a dent in it, or lost the will to try. Trump had it moved to class III. The contingent likes trump so much that the complaining was relatively mild.

This is one of the reasons that I don't like politics - the outcome is the same, why does it matter what letter is next to the name of the person doing it?

My point to you (being in the UK, this stuff may be somewhat foreign, the idea of trigger sears and parts completely different between the two guns, and *highly* regulated) is that a browning BLR or some other euro semi automatics are similar to the black plastic guns in function. They just look sporting. There are variants of both used to hunt here in the states. It's not allowed in my state - you have to cycle the action here by law, manually, but it's allowed in other states, and then yet some others, you can hunt with a shotgun slug but not a rifle (shotgun slugs look scary, but they come out of the air at an exceptionally short distance. At close range, they're extremely effective for hunting).

Don't worry, the media often has trouble understanding the difference between semi-auto and auto, too, and they quite often refer to semi-automatic US-manufactured semi-autos as "AK-47s" (a fully automatic soviet design).

Also, my point was that you are allowed to have a firearm for defense in the US if you'd like and you're legally eligible. You can lose that right by being irresponsible. The statement was made by several on here that it was a want (as in, collectibles or leisure) so I went with that in terms of someone saying that everyone was buying machines whose only purpose was to kill. But it's hard to make the case for that when most are just shot at paper.

 

[D_W]

Assault rifle is not a brand it is a military designation for a human killing machine that will provide manual, semi automatic and automatic firing of rounds at a rate between 200 and 600 per minute out to a range of 800m with a spread killing field no greater than 20m at 300m and is shorter than a carbine and longer than a machine pistol. Nowhere is there ever the mention of sport or hunting involved

By that definition, except for a tiny group of Class III license holders, there are none of those in the US. I don't personally know a class III holder who isn't a licensed dealer (class III also covers shipping - so you and your neighbor couldn't ship from one to the next unless the recipient has a class III license, and a license holder/dealer is where you would get a background check. The local ones here require a background check on anything shipped to them).

An M-16 and AR-15 look a lot alike. The AR-15 function is similar to a semi-automatic hunting rifle, and not like the M-16.

 

[mikej460]

The fact that any American with a license can pop down to their local supermarket and buy a semi-automatic rifle complete with enough ammunition to wipe out a small town and parade about kitted out like Rambo on coke during otherwise peaceful demonstrations is indefensible by any measure. The 2nd Amendment is an archaic law that has no place in a modern society and I hope Biden is successful in his plans to curtail it.

 

[Blackswanwood]

By that definition, except for a tiny group of Class III license holders, there are none of those in the US. I don't personally know a class III holder who isn't a licensed dealer (class III also covers shipping - so you and your neighbor couldn't ship from one to the next unless the recipient has a class III license, and a license holder/dealer is where you would get a background check. The local ones here require a background check on anything shipped to them).

An M-16 and AR-15 look a lot alike. The AR-15 function is similar to a semi-automatic hunting rifle, and not like the M-16.

And you can buy an AR-15 at the age of 18 but not alcohol until the age of 21!

 

[selectortone]

I have some very good friends in the USA and have been over there often on business and for pleasure (although not for a while now). Still keep in regular contact. I think the reality is that the genie is well and truly out of the bottle as far as guns are concerned and even though most of my friends would like to put that genie back in the bottle there's very, very little chance of that happening.

A lot of them, especially the guys who live in high crime areas, keep a gun in the house and regularly take time at a range to keep competent with it. They don't like it, but that's the situation they find themselves in.

We should thank our lucky stars that the chances of an armed confrontation are comparatively tiny in this country (unless you're in the drugs trade...)

 

[D_W]

If by “covered it” you mean you gave your opinion it probably is in your essays above somewhere.

An assault rifle is the term commonly used for rifles that can be switched to automatic fire ... i.e. squeeze the trigger and spray bullets. In my view that’s not a requirement in any leisure activity or sport. You may have a different view but I’m not going to be persuaded.

And you can buy an AR-15 at the age of 18 but not alcohol until the age of 21!

Well, I guess given that the alcohol is more likely to kill you, I guess that would justify that, but I personally don't agree with the drinking age laws. I think they are set by state, but failing to use 21 can cause loss of federal highway funds. In a wide open country not nearly as densely packed as the UK, highway funds are important (as in, there's a larger burden per capita for roads...not that all of the cities do a very good job with road upkeep - the city roads here are the worst, but that's just because they have people with their hands out all the time).

I don't believe you can buy a pistol here at age 18. I think you have to be 21.

 

[D_W]

The uniform age 21 drinking age predates me being 21 - I looked it up. It was done after lobbying by mother's against drunk driving under two arguments:
1) kids age 18 (especially early college age) don't have the judgement to deal with alcohol
2) drinking alcohol during that age span correlates with some level of cognitive deficit as well as greater likelihood of alcoholism later in life

 

[TRITON]

None of the rifles sold as semiautomatics in the US have a switch to just go to automatic fire.

Hence i suppose the 'Bump Stock' device. Always some cowpat out there coming up with such to effectively turn it fully automatic. which im glad they banned, though the reasons for them doing that we saw in Las Vegas.

I don't believe you can buy a pistol here at age 18. I think you have to be 21.

" Federal law prohibits the possession of a handgun or handgun ammunition by any person under the age of 18. Federal law provides no minimum age for the possession of long guns or long gun ammunition. Licensed gun dealers aren't allowed to sell handguns to anyone under the age of 21 "

Mind you... ever worked with a 21 yr old ? . Talk about no experience of anything, in fact they still eat sweeties like they're going out of fashion

I've seen a number of old US movies, where the kid gets a 'long gun' usually on his 12th birthday. Appears to be very cultural.

Your tag is for Pennsylvania, which borders the Great Lakes. So I guess it's not guns you guys are into but bug spray

 

[D_W]

I have some very good friends in the USA and have been over there often on business and for pleasure (although not for a while now). Still keep in regular contact. I think the reality is that the genie is well and truly out of the bottle as far as guns are concerned and even though most of my friends would like to put that genie back in the bottle there's very, very little chance of that happening.

A lot of them, especially the guys who live in high crime areas, keep a gun in the house and regularly take time at a range to keep competent with it. They don't like it, but that's the situation they find themselves in.

We should thank our lucky stars that the chances of an armed confrontation are comparatively tiny in this country (unless you're in the drugs trade...)

If you carve it intentionally living in dangerous areas in the states, there's no valid reason to fear an armed confrontation, either. Not sure why your friends wouldn't move - there's generally lower-cost areas in most cities that aren't unsafe. They aren't particularly exciting, but if the choice is between exciting with shots fired and boring, I'm going for the latter.

 

[D_W]

Hence i suppose the 'Bump Stock' device. Always some cowpat out there coming up with such to effectively turn it fully automatic. which im glad they banned, though the reasons for them doing that we saw in Las Vegas.


" Federal law prohibits the possession of a handgun or handgun ammunition by any person under the age of 18. Federal law provides no minimum age for the possession of long guns or long gun ammunition. Licensed gun dealers aren't allowed to sell handguns to anyone under the age of 21 "

Mind you... ever worked with a 21 yr old ? . Talk about no experience of anything, in fact they still eat sweeties like they're going out of fashion

I've seen a number of old US movies, where the kid gets a 'long gun' usually on his 12th birthday. Appears to be very cultural.

Your tag is for Pennsylvania, which borders the Great Lakes. So I guess it's not guns you guys are into but bug spray

Where I grew up, it was sort of (less now) common for people to start hunting with their parents around age 12 (not me). I can recall a few kids getting a deer rifle for their 12th birthday, but they weren't allowed to walk around with it like a doll.

The enormous combo fascination here on TV in the 1950s/1960s probably led to some strange idea about cultural traditions here (with TV shows showing pre-1900 western scenes where everyone either had a cane and a top hat, or a gun belt). For whatever reason, those TV shows played well with urbanized people - fantasy, I guess. Now the shows glorify urbanization and it usually causes "lady flight" (the ambitious ladies leave the small towns and head to the cities).

The combo with that fascination that's odd is the space/jet/rocket age. Little Timmy dreams of riding to space with his six shooter.

(we've got our share of mosquitoes, but fortunately not like the swamp areas in the north central US. If you live anywhere close to dairies or livestock farms here, you'll be fighting biting flies all the time - far more painful).

 

[Jameshow]

We spend a week in NY 18months ago
- remember those days!

We stayed on Staten Island and I went to get some milk bread etc on our first night, had a walk around with my 16 yo son lots of guys hanging around much like Bradford at night....

Next day spoke to owners who said don't go left out the house after dark as it's a bit rough down that way.

Son looked it up and notorious gangs controlled the area.

You live and learn.....

Rural Pennsylvania was lovely definitely go back there.

Cheers James

 

[Mark Hancock]

If you carve it intentionally living in dangerous areas in the states, there's no valid reason to fear an armed confrontation, either. Not sure why your friends wouldn't move - there's generally lower-cost areas in most cities that aren't unsafe. They aren't particularly exciting, but if the choice is between exciting with shots fired and boring, I'm going for the latter.

I spent 2 months in Philadelphia whilst on a artist's residency. I vividly recall hearing what I thought was a car back firing only to be told by a fellow resident that it was in fact a 38 gun shot; he was Canadian and had a gun for hunting...best venison I ever had at his home grilled on a bbq. At the time we were resident at the UArts student accommodation along Broad Street I think. That was in 2003. Also recall being told that the area we shopped in wasn't advisable because of the gun problem in that area.
About 2 years ago a good friend emigrated to the states. I met up with him in Austria at an event in late 2018 and he was telling me how he had to get a gun carry permit for his own piece of mind...not to be able to carry but to be covered if he was stopped in someone else's vehicle where a gun was found because many have guns without the required permits and as a passenger he would be in trouble particular as an immigrant.
I've read most of your comments on this thread and others but my own experiences of the States and those I know who live lead me to believe that they don't tally with reality.

 

[D_W]

If you lived in center city Philadelphia, you don't really have a concept of what most of the US is like.

Philadelphia didn't allow concealed carry back then, either. Not sure if they do now, but I had a permit when I hunted and it wasn't valid in Philadelphia. There weren't any issued there as far as I know, either.

Pick the worst five areas in the uk, concentrated spots, and the pretend you lived only in them and claimed you knew what it was like to live in the uk. Then pretend you got online and told the people who lived in the majority of the uk that they weren't familiar with what it was actually like.

I wouldn't go to school in center city Philadelphia, or south philly, or Camden new Jersey. I actually had that choice, and I recall someone saying that you shouldn't wander off campus at upenn or temple. That'd be an indication to go somewhere else.

About 5% of the population probably lives in areas like that.

 

[Mark Hancock]

If you lived in center city Philadelphia, you don't really have a concept of what most of the US is like.

Philadelphia didn't allow concealed carry back then, either. Not sure if they do now, but I had a permit when I hunted and it wasn't valid in Philadelphia. There weren't any issued there as far as I know, either.

Pick the worst five areas in the uk, concentrated spots, and the pretend you lived only in them and claimed you knew what it was like to live in the uk. Then pretend you got online and told the people who lived in the majority of the uk that they weren't familiar with what it was actually like.

I wouldn't go to school in center city Philadelphia, or south philly, or Camden new Jersey. I actually had that choice, and I recall someone saying that you shouldn't wander off campus at upenn or temple. That'd be an indication to go somewhere else.

About 5% of the population probably lives in areas like that.

I'm assuming that this is response to my post about my time in Philly etc. From what I recall Broad Street, Philadelphia isn't usually regarded as a bad area of the city; if I recall correctly it's the main street that leads up to the guy p,,,sing off the big building in the center of the city; Broad street being very similar to Oxford street, London...that's in the UK. The UArts accommodation was used for many years as it was central and had excellent facilities.
As to not knowing what the US is like I also spent time in New England (I can list the places if you wish). Arizona, Texas, etc. and the west coast. It was fascinating to observe the difference between people on the west coast and those on the east; west cost more open to the world, east coast more up tight and trigger happy.... first time I saw an AK-47 in the flesh was in the office of the guy that ran the city recycling center for timber. And on that point I was really impressed with the forward thinking of the city of Philadelphia with regard to how they dealt with timber recycling which should be adopted worldwide IMHO.
Just out of interest have you ever been outside of the USA?

 

[RobinBHM]

ou are allowed to have a firearm for defense in the US

Guns aren't an effective defence weapon.

 

[RobinBHM]

There was a point here about 240 years ago that we used them to get away from a crooked government, though

Not relavent now.

 

[RobinBHM]

It's interesting when anecdotal and actual universal levels agree

Iits easy to find anecdotal evidence that agrees with almost any argument.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

We stayed on Staten Island and I went to get some milk bread etc on our first night, had a walk around with my 16 yo son lots of guys hanging around much like Bradford at night....
Next day spoke to owners who said don't go left out the house after dark as it's a bit rough down that way.

It was 1975. I was 22, and in London docklands for my girlfriend's sister's wedding (they were a London family). We stayed with a very elderly aunty in an awful tower block.
After several (too many) beers in the local colour segregated pub we went back to the flat. I found (as I always did) the temperature and the lack of fresh air (not in short supply where I live) oppressive, so decided to go for a walk. The next morning the old lady said at breakfast that she'd heard the door open (not surprising, it had about five bolts on it) and asked had someone gone outside for some reason. Yes, I went for a walk. Oh, my gawd ............. oh, my Gawd ....... where did you go?
Oh, just down around the docks and up to Rotherhithe Tunnel. Didn't you see anyone? Yes, a gang of black kids, about fifteen of them. What did they do? I went to move off the pavement to walk around them, but they saw me coming and crossed the road. You were lucky - they though either you were a psychopath or had a shooter ........... probably both.