Keith Cocker
Established Member
Any more cliches to add?
India’s successful Moon Landing
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Jacob
What goes around comes around.
You mean ask for better wages, job security and better working conditions?
They provide a worse service and screw us instead with big profits, payout dividends and bonuses.
https://theconversation.com/the-uks-water-industry-is-broken-heres-how-to-fix-it-190700
You mean she looked after the better off?
@Jacob, Job security comes from maintaining a competitive edge, developing new products and technologies and adapting to a changing world. It’s not an out a ‘right’ to a job for life, or having larger subsidies from the Government. Let’s not forget, that we are the Governments source of income through taxes, so every penny they spend as a subsidy has to come from increased tax revenue. It’s simple economics!
Let’s take the railways as a current example that are an Oligoply and we see that the Unions are striking for a huge pay increase. They are resisting any form of modernisation, restructuring or efficiency gains and instead want more of the same for more money. Now, let’s consider just how much this is costing all of us in subsidies to keep the trains moving without the wage increase demanded by the caring sharing unions. A mere £11 billion in 2022/23. That’s a little over 1/4 of what we as a country spend on defence, and enough to run 11 of our largest teaching hospitals….now that would improve people lives hugely. So, we have what is in-essence a bankrupt railways being supported by our taxes and Government borrowings that the unions feel should be larger subsidies to support higher wages for their members as they don’t want to make the necessary changes to make it cost effective and efficient. The Union has a self interest in gaining large wage increases as this increases the subs they get from members, that enables them to pay the executives of the union more money and enjoy their six figure salaries (Mick Lynch enjoys a salary package currently of c£120,000……now that is a fat cat salary……which he is always shouting about!!….Hypocrite) for bleeding the country’s tax payers. Wow, that puts the power and interests of the unions into perspective.
I have worked for Zeneca when it was a subsidiary of ICI. All I can say for the Union relations is that to me, the the chaps that boozed it up in swanky London hotels with the union representatives just highlights the corruption and hand in pocket relationship I saw that the union representatives had with the company. Ask yourself, why the hell would the company and union representatives need to be staying in a London Hotel drinking and no doubt merry making together? The company had huge conference facilities, ACAS had the same, and the union recognised that it was likely that the soft back handlers of wining and dining on the company’s account whilst allegedly representing its members was coming to an end. Back in the 1970 corruption and bribes were rife!
Let’s take the railways as a current example that are an Oligoply and we see that the Unions are striking for a huge pay increase. They are resisting any form of modernisation, restructuring or efficiency gains and instead want more of the same for more money. Now, let’s consider just how much this is costing all of us in subsidies to keep the trains moving without the wage increase demanded by the caring sharing unions. A mere £11 billion in 2022/23. That’s a little over 1/4 of what we as a country spend on defence, and enough to run 11 of our largest teaching hospitals….now that would improve people lives hugely. So, we have what is in-essence a bankrupt railways being supported by our taxes and Government borrowings that the unions feel should be larger subsidies to support higher wages for their members as they don’t want to make the necessary changes to make it cost effective and efficient. The Union has a self interest in gaining large wage increases as this increases the subs they get from members, that enables them to pay the executives of the union more money and enjoy their six figure salaries (Mick Lynch enjoys a salary package currently of c£120,000……now that is a fat cat salary……which he is always shouting about!!….Hypocrite) for bleeding the country’s tax payers. Wow, that puts the power and interests of the unions into perspective.
I have worked for Zeneca when it was a subsidiary of ICI. All I can say for the Union relations is that to me, the the chaps that boozed it up in swanky London hotels with the union representatives just highlights the corruption and hand in pocket relationship I saw that the union representatives had with the company. Ask yourself, why the hell would the company and union representatives need to be staying in a London Hotel drinking and no doubt merry making together? The company had huge conference facilities, ACAS had the same, and the union recognised that it was likely that the soft back handlers of wining and dining on the company’s account whilst allegedly representing its members was coming to an end. Back in the 1970 corruption and bribes were rife!
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Jacob
What goes around comes around.
For some but not for all. Many businesses and institutions rely on doing the same thing, providing the same service, maintaining the same quality, year after year. Same applies to most jobs.
This competitive jungle you fantasise about is just another popular right wing but naive idea.
Most human achievement has been based on cooperation rather than competition.
One of the most crackpot tory ideas has been that schools, health providers and other services, should be "competitive", when in fact they flourish best in a spirit of cooperation.
Simple economics should tell you that every penny the government spends, goes back into the economy one way or another, but on projects different from those favoured by private enterprises.
What you call govt "subsidy" could just as well be called govt "investment".
Spending on public services is an investment in the health and wealth of the community, but may not show on an accountants balance sheet as such - but that's a failing of accountancy.
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I think that's a huge problem in every developing country. They try and support the people with social programs, then it grows and grows until they are holding society hostage. Here in Canada , a few workres who moved away from the east coast , told me about the endless amount of people that sit on welfare. Houses with a grand parents , parents and kids, three generations collecting welfare with zero incentive to work. Why should they, they were raised like that. They have all the essentials and don't have to do anything. I think if society made all able body people who are on social services that they have to work for it. In jobs that don't take away jobs from people. Say walk the highways in crews for 8 hours a day to clean up garbage, Then when they realize they have to work, they realize if they get a better job they make more money.
Unions had a place years ago when people made 2 cents an hour, Today unions are usually in jobs that require not a lot of education. The Govt liquors stores, a dream job here, massive pay, pension plan, etc, etc, Kids get out of school go work at the wood mill, cutting lumber there whole life, starting pay same as journeyman carpenter, again full pension. unions Are past there usefulness these days.
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Jameshow
Established Member
We need state support for business especially big business because every other country is giving support to its industries despite saying the opposite. Be it in loans grants or preferential purchasing.
We may have written the EU rules but every country has ignored them.
Thanks to Maggie we ran down our manufacturing industry and the sold it for a penny to BMW, VW or Tata.
You would never have seen France or Germany do that.
Nor see British used ships being built overseas.
The rules were adhered to by us and flaunted by the rest.
Transit for instance moved to Turkey with EU loans. Range rover moves to Slovakia in sure with EU support it goes I and on.
No, no, and again no. You clearly demonstrate yet again that you have no idea about economics, finance and how a successful business operate. Please, for the love of this forum pick up and read a few books on economics before making any further ridiculous posts on subjects that clearly no nothing about, but worse try to project an authority over. I value your insights when your talking about things you clearly understand.
There isn’t a service or business either private or state owned that can naively do the same thing year after year and remain cost effective and of value in an ever changing world. We do see it though, it’s called nationalised industries or services that have all become so ineffective, unmanageable and full of people that do nothing of value that we as the tax payers have to support it with ever increasing subsidies.
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Chest beating again!
Do you shout a lot at home?https://www.theguardian.com/comment...companies-nationalise-a-flawed-private-system
Wrong, simply wrong. You have a habit of contradicting yourself. So, in one post you state that the wealthy are just hoovering up the money and depriving everyone else from it. In this post your are extolling the virtues of the state. So, have you looked at just how many civil servants are within the top 2% of of earners in the UK? How many Union officials are also in this elite category? How many train drivers are also members of this exclusive club? All paid out of taxes, and in the case of the trains, paid for by subsidies that could be far better spent on say the NHS to get the 6 million treated in a timely manner?
Ahh, when I highlight the flaws in the argument I’m chest beating? What do you call it when you make stuff up and post it as fact expecting nobody to call it out?Chest beating again!
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/07/08/...o rivers and,companies to fix those problems.
What has Thames water a private company got to do with anything? Water company’s need to invest, change working practices and become more efficient. Not losing water through leaks, processing sewage effectively and efficiently rather than relying on Victorian systems all fits in with the narrative I highlighted. Let’s not forget, they water industry had six tenths of zero investment under state control……that why the sewage system is still what the Victorian installed and hadn’t been upgraded, expanded and improved! We dumped more in the rivers under state control than we have since privatisation!
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Shouting as usual!
What has any of that got to do with the real issues, even if true? Nothing.
It would be good to tax them more severely however, or do you think that would discourage them from investing, leave the country etc etc
Come on Jacob, come back with one fact, one actual thing that isn’t just rhetoric of the left that can stand more than 2 seconds of scrutiny.
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
NHS? State education? Council housing?
Post war consensus is a good place to start if you want to get up to speed. Not that it is simple and unproblematic, but a lot was done, and subsequently undone.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-... consensus, sometimes,1945 to the late-1970s.What do you think of this article about wealth distribution?
https://gala.gre.ac.uk/id/eprint/42714/9/42714_TIPPET_The_good_life_at_the_top.pdfOr this proposal for a wealth tax?
https://gala.gre.ac.uk/id/eprint/33...a_Progressive_Annual_Wealth_Tax_(2021)_v2.pdf
All three need to become more efficient, and are making strides to do so. The NHS sets targets for as an example efficiency savings to be attained each year. In many areas they have embraced and are world leading in efficiency. My wife used to run hospitals, and be one of those called in when a hospital failed.
I have been a lecturer in my early years, and can say with hand in heart there are always more efficient ways of delivering it. Video conferencing, which is now widely used in Universities and soon AI.
Council housing, modern building is faster and more energy efficient than it was. Houses can be designed for maintenance rather than the old ways of everything buried. Timber frame rather than block and brick. The list goes on and on.
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Stuart Moffat
Established Member
India’s moon rover weighs more or less the same as my 8inch bench grinder! (On topic)
Stuart
Stuart
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
NHS was historically regarded as a miracle of efficiency and cost effectiveness, but has been systematically underfunded and run down since 1979, with dubious and divisive management initiatives, lining up for privatisation.
Ditto education at all levels.
Council house building virtually nil - hence the housing crisis - largely kicked off by Thatchers sell off.
Hospitals, schools, other public bodies, only "fail" in tory terms as they have naively set about making them "competitive" with all sorts of arbitrary measures of performance. Right wing ideology at work. But they are under state control so the failure is still theirs however much they dodge and weave to avoid it: that's where the buck stops. If they fail again after privatisation it is still the states fault, but also of private enterprise.
Did you look at the two links I keep posting up? I'd be interested in your comments - other than the usual trumpeting and chest beating of course!
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I will use your own argument, the wealthy don’t sit on their money under the mattress, they invest it usually in industry, so they are helping to create new jobs and opportunities, more effectively than any government. Equally, back in the old days people made their fortunes locally, the6 owned the factory in the village / town / city. These days people make money on the world stage, if you invest in say Google shares, you investing in a company with global reach. Your not ‘hording‘ GBP, but dollars, and they are giving you dollars having made their money in every currency and economy around the world. Equally, who do you think buys up government bonds to enable governments to borrow?
The problem the UK had is that we dont have enough millionaires or billionaires, we need as many as possible! The more the better. Higher taxation on the super wealthy who can literally live anywhere in the world will just drive them to say Monoco, where they d8nt oay any taxes!
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Except for all those things which can't make a profit, such as public health, education, affordable housing, other public services. This is where the state has to invest, and why the state is the biggest UK investor.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17429786
You now defiantly get the Dietrich Bonhoeffern ‘stupid’ award. Just a quick google will highlight that the NHS targets were setup by Labour under Tony Blair. They were brilliant and led to huge progress and efficiency being driven through the NHS. Absolutely nothing to do with the Tories who in fact are trying to water down the targets to cover up their appalling management of the NHS.
Wrong again, it’s not about profit, but about cost effective delivery. If it costs less to provide the service / product we don’t need to spend as much of the tax revenue on it, we don’t need to tax the population as much, we effectively put money back in people pockets.
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