In praise of Amazon

[AJB Temple]

I think this is really fantastic service:

Last week I bought a Triton rebate planer from Amazon for £90 delivered next day. I bought it because I am cleaning up a lot of joints and rough bits in green oak, and it has unlimited depth rebate capability and I wanted the sills in )(a lot of joints to cut and surfaces to finish) on the bank holiday weekend. I know I can get my hand planes out but I am doing this on my own in my spare time and need to crack on.

Good tool. Bit light duty. Review follows when I get time.

It broke almost straight away because the cover mechanism that guards the blade rotor is a stupid design and the nylon (or whatever it is) ratchet is not strong enough. I suspect the part was faulty at the outset. I instigated Amazon return and replace on Saturday at around noon. On Sunday at 10 am the courier turned up with a replacement. No money changed hands. On Tuesday (after the bank holiday) DPD collected the defective one. Excellent service.

 

[deema]

Great service by the supplier.....don't confess the two......You should read the contract that you need to agree to if you wish to do business. Clearly they don't put a gun to the head of the suppliers......but their market presence and brand has the fire power of a howlizer. I speak as one who sold his sole and signed the contract.

 

[AJB Temple]

As a consumer I don't care. I just want stuff fast and at a good price with zero hassle when things go wrong. Amazon have nailed this. I know they are not 100% good guys but business is a cut throat world.

 

[Ali]

Cut throat is fine, unfair competition is not. The way Amazon avoid tax allows them to offer such service.

Consumers might not care but if you hurt yourself with your new tool you might have to use public services that needed that money.

 

[AJB Temple]

Is it unfair? In what way? They are running a business and they leverage their power - the advantage of scale. They are a game changer in terms of customer service.

 

[deema]

A company that can influence governments is company to be extremely concerned about. There are a few, and most well know are from America.

 

[rafezetter]

A company that can influence governments is company to be extremely concerned about. There are a few, and most well know are from America.

Wrong, the company that can detrimentally influence goverments means the govt is the one to be extremely concerned about. Amazon avoids tax because they have been allowed to; either by laws, incentives, clever accountining or sweetheart deals, and that is the truth behind the reality, not some scaremongering "they don't pay taxes so they are bad guys and we must boycott and libel them at every opportunity".

Whatever your personal feelings about amazon or any other multinational, they have done nothing illegal - you might not LIKE how the laws they are abiding by are set up, but that's a whole different issue and not amazons fault. Why don't you go ask your employer if they could avoid paying tax, would they?

So until such time as we read headlines that Amazon has to pay backtaxes that have been deemed "illegally avoided" - just as Apple have been told they are accountable for in Ireland, I and others will continue to use amazon and enjoy the good customer service from it with a clear conscience that I am not contributing to any illegal activity.

 

[No skills]

Stay on their good side. I think they will merge with Microsoft in some years and form Skynet.

 

[deema]

I believe Amazon are under the microscope just as Apple were for their use of tax havens. Illegal and moral are two different concepts often confused but every recognises what's not correct.. My employer, me, agrees with me by the way!

 

[NazNomad]

Following on from Deema's post, if we stopped dealing with immoral companies, we'd simply 'stop dealing'.

I'm a huge fan of Amazon. If they are exploiting a tax loophole without breaking the law, then fair play to 'em.

 

[Biliphuster]

I agree. If the government wants to tax Amazon it needs to close the loopholes that Amazon does, or potentially could exploit. When I buy something that is VAT exempt I don't think "Oh well, I think the moral thing to do would be to pay VAT on my Jaffacakes even if technically I don't have to, I will send the exchequer some money later". Nor would I expect Jaffcake Ltd (McVities?) to donate 20% of their revenue to the national coffers. If the government want 20% of my Jaffacake budget they can change the laws to include them.

It must be galling if you are a competitor that can't exploit the same loophole, but blame the government, not Amazon/McVities.

 

[yetloh]

What many of these posts fail to recognise is that the power of vast multinationals make them almost impossible to control, however immorally they behave. Call me naive if you like but I believe morals really do matter in business, it's not just the tax, it's the way they use their power to exploit their workforce as shown in recent documentaries. Me, I vote with my wallet and buy elsewhere.

Jim

 

[AJB Temple]

I am rarely persuaded by the worker exploitation argument. There is a competitive labour market and people can choose to sell their time and skills to an employer - or to someone else (or they can move somewhere else). Amazon provide jobs - and some people don't like what they pay or what they expect in return for what they pay. Such workers can seek employment elsewhere - if there is no employment elsewhere they are probably getting the market rate, especially of there is a steady supply of others willing to work for that rate.

Morals is a concept that cannot be defined as everyone operates to a different scale of acceptable behaviour. Anyone is free to decide not to buy from Amazon. My experience is that when things go wrong you get refund / replacement straight away. This is in contrast to say eBay and PayPal where there is a great deal of delay and uncertainty built into the process.

 

[lurker]

On Saturday, I had an argument with a w h smith employee in Birmingham airport who insisted on me showing my boarding card.

They were told 2 years ago to stop this vat avoiding scam.
Why hasn't the tax man jumped on them from a great height?

As others say it's the governments actions that need sorting.

 

[DiscoStu]

Ah that had never crossed my mind. So they want your boarding card so that they can say you're exporting the goods and therefore not pay the VAT on it, yet they are charging you that VAT? Or rather I guess they are claiming that everything you buy is priced without VAT, yet oddly it's the same price as the high st?

I'd never considered that, but if that's what's happening it's outrageous.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[morturn]

I see Amazon as the person who always avoids buying a round of drinks. Nothing illegal, but dam right unsociable and everyone else in the group has to pick up their bill.

I have a list of Amazon alterative suppliers, and will always look there first before using Amazon as a last resort.

 

[deema]

It's a personal opinion,a few years ago it was fairly normal for goods to found on UK shelves that were made using child labour which is now not allowed by established and reputable companies and virtually stamped out. Equally, certain products exploited the indigenous enhabitants for low cost products which lead to a back lash when people finally understood what was going on to fair trade products. Again a few years ago is was common for products to made from minerals mined and sold that supported localised wars and terrorism, the conflict minerals legislation has agin fairly well stamped this out.

For me, just because it's cheap, doesn't make it right, ethical and moral behaviours are what is required. Avoidance of tax just means for a standard of health care, schooling, police, etc etc we all have to pay more tax to compensate for those who find a loop hole. There will always be loop holes, as no law is perfect.

Again it's just a personal opinion, but to reduce my tax bill, and to support those companies that have an ethical and moral approach to business I avoid buying any products of those who use accountants, and lawyers to find the cracks in legislation and in so doing pay less tax and unfairly compete against those who don't. Now that's sounds counter intuitive to having signed up to them, well, to support my employees I need the sales outlet that they have created and dominate.

 

[yetloh]

Well said Deema.

I am rarely persuaded by the worker exploitation argument. There is a competitive labour market and people can choose to sell their time and skills to an employer - or to someone else (or they can move somewhere else). Amazon provide jobs - and some people don't like what they pay or what they expect in return for what they pay. Such workers can seek employment elsewhere - if there is no employment elsewhere they are probably getting the market rate, especially of there is a steady supply of others willing to work for that rate.

Morals is a concept that cannot be defined as everyone operates to a different scale of acceptable behaviour. Anyone is free to decide not to buy from Amazon. My experience is that when things go wrong you get refund / replacement straight away. This is in contrast to say eBay and PayPal where there is a great deal of delay and uncertainty built into the process.

It is easy to say such things from leafy Tunbridge Wells, but many of these jobs are in places where there is no alternative. The jobs are very low paid, usually zero hours and offer no security and companies like Amazon exploit this extreme power imbalance. I fully respect your right to view the relationship as you do but this is enough on its own to make me decide I don't want anything to do with Amazon and that is without their tax dodging activities. It is usually possible to get goods for or very close to Amazon prices from other suppliers with a little effort. For my part, I am lucky enugh to be able to afford to pay a little more and buy from companies that I know and trust.

Jim

 

[AJB Temple]

I have some sympathy for this perspective. However, it is a giant leap to assume that just because I happen to live in Kent near Tunbridge Wells that I am an ignoramus about conditions in other areas: a lot of my family come from a factory background in the midlands and tough times have been experienced. However, I am a subscriber to the philosophy that if you want work you get off your arse and go and find it. If that means moving, then move. That is what I did when I was 17 and wanted to get an education and career - and I have always been prepared to move to do what I wanted. I do not think it is necessarily "exploitation" when companies utilise local labour (usually unskilled) that has no willingness for mobility or skill acquisition either in some cases. They are paying the market rate. I am an employer of about 50 people in London and am well aware of market forces at work in the skilled labour market.

I do not buy from Amazon because of price: they are rarely the absolute cheapest (but often quite competitive) but because of the service. One click ordering is excellent technology. They do not make a fuss about wanting a signature all the time. They are 100% reliable and communicative with your order status. Prime is a great idea: next day delivery (or same day now in London) and no delivery costs: in the course of a year this saves me money without doubt. But the main thing is that returns are dead easy - print a label and send it back at zero cost and hassle (they will even collect it from you) and you get a refund, sometimes instantly (before you return the goods) or you get an exact replacement next day before you have sent the defective item back.

If you leave feedback, the suppliers by and large get back to you pronto. I recently bought two Makita batteries and a charger. One battery would not charge fully - and I posted that in feedback saying I may return it. The supplier was on it within 12 hours. It will get dealt with.

Hardly anyone really competes with this overall superb service. The consumer benefits but I accept that efficiencies myst be forced into the supply chain to achieve it. We are still in the early days of the internet shopping and delivery model really, as drone delivery has yet come. The landscape is changing rapidly and the Amazon business model is efficient in may ways (not packaging or packaging disposal though, which is very wasteful).

However for high quality stuff I tend to buy from places like Classic Hand Tools as then I can talk to someone who knows about the tools.

 

[yetloh]

I in no way meant to imply that you were ignorant of condiitions in other parts of the country but it distance and a different environment can dull perceptions. We are all different and will attach different weights to factors. We disagree and that is part of life. One thing I m sure we do share is a love of working wood and hooray for that!

Jim