Improved hand tool myth.

[baldkev]

Yer modern joiner is obviously going to be faster but can get caught out when hand tool skill could save the day e.g. if on site somewhere, etc etc. All of a sudden rip sawing by hand or freehand sharpening with an oil stone, become essential!
One very well used tool was the joiner's axe, which has been just about forgotten.

We can still sharpen and use saws ( although im sure that'll dry up eventually )
Its true that new chippies wont have the same experience that i had whilst starting out, so are very much more reliant on power tools with less hand tool experience.
When i learnt worktops, we didnt use a router, the masons mitre was by hand. Took a while but was how i was taught.
Also true that understanding wood and its grains / effects of these sections is becoming lost. I trained about 25 years ago and I was not taught anything about wood selection/ cupping etc ( either at colledge or by my old boss )
The only time ive worked without power was a kitchen fit up on the moors with no electric. Back then i had a battery drill and 2 batteries, which lasted a day ok. The rest was handtools. About 20 years ago.

With jigsaws etc, we dont need axes....

 

[baldkev]

In some cases it's true, particularly in conservation.

I can make 6' of any historic raking moulding of any size and any profile faster than a modern joiner can get the cutters, plus the £3000 he spends on the specialist cutters, which he will probably only ever use for one job, will go straight in my pocket.

There are the odd cases where power tools shouldnt be used much, like your work, the character is in the skill of that time and available processes in those days. Most modern attempts to recreate it with up to date tools and processes would fail to capture the character

 

[Jacob]

Probably not many days need saving though as if they did all modern joiners would lug around a load of hand tools “just in case”.

Well yes - always did. Hand tools still get used a lot. The most likely machine replacement is the powered drill/screwdriver.

 

[Adam W.]

@baldkev Not got time to go to work though, too much learning to be done. Anyway there's no call for my kind of skills here in Jutland either and I need a break from London too.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

When I was about fifteen at school I went to the woodwork shop one morning and the master asked what I was going to do that morning. I replied that I was going to chop my mortices. He told me to go to the adjacent metalwork shop, make sure the pillar drill was clean and drill them out. I was surprised and asked why, and he said I already know you can cut them perfectly well, so use the drill, it's quicker.
If we wanted to make something he'd say come back next week with the drawings, if your drawings are OK you can make it. There is still a good case for starting at the beginning, and it's good to know you how things are done without power tools.

 

[Molynoox]

Back when jacob started ( with a flint axe ) they used their stubble as sandpaper..... proper men back then

Today's work is faster. No way was a guy with handtools quicker than a chopsaw or nailgun or tracksaw, impact driver, router etc....
Materials have changed and some of the processes ( lath and plaster vs dry lining etc ) are different, but lots of tools simply speed you up. You'll always have a mix of cowboys and high quality tradesmen though, so its not really comparable in terms of quality. A lot of old carpenters were good some were rough. A lot of new carpenters are good, some are rough!

So what did the original comment mean then?
I'm sure it was along the lines of 'old school guy with hand tools could make far more stuff and far quicker than modern guy with power tools'

 

[baldkev]

So what did the original comment mean then?
I'm sure it was along the lines of 'old school guy with hand tools could make far more stuff and far quicker than modern guy with power tools'

Yes, the gist of what @Jacob was saying was they were quicker with hand tools in the old days.
My post disagreed, due to modern tools mainly, speeding up the processes

 

[Molynoox]

Yes, the gist of what @Jacob was saying was they were quicker with hand tools in the old days.
My post disagreed, due to modern tools mainly, speeding up the processes

It wasn't Jacob. I'm sure somebody else agreed with the comment too. It's what started me thinking about it...

 

[Molynoox]

I've just checked, it was post #16 and 17. It's not important, it just got me thinking it was incredible as nobody seemed to disagree with it!

 

[Qwercus]

The spiral ratchet screwdriver-originally invented by North Bros before they were taken over by Stanley-was a great improvement on the old turnscrews.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Someone working with hand tools 100 years ago would undoubtedly be faster than someone doing the same work with the same tools today - I don't think there's any argument there. To think that they would have been quicker than someone doing the same job today with power tools is just daft. I remember at thirteen spending hours with a star drill beating holes in granite - what took a day then you could probably do in a quarter of an hour now.

 

[Jacob]

Yes, the gist of what @Jacob was saying was they were quicker with hand tools in the old days.
My post disagreed, due to modern tools mainly, speeding up the processes

I didn't say that. It's nonsense obviously.

 

[Jacob]

I've just checked, it was post #16 and 17. It's not important, it just got me thinking it was incredible as nobody seemed to disagree with it!

Not my posts. I thought I'd check just in case the dementia has finally set in!

 

[baldkev]

I didn't say that. It's nonsense obviously.

Sorry jacob , looking back through, it was daniel2 who said that.....

 

[MikeK]

I can make 6' of any historic raking moulding of any size and any profile faster than a modern joiner can get the cutters, plus the £3000 he spends on the specialist cutters, which he will probably only ever use for one job, will go straight in my pocket.

This is an impressive boast and ignores the capability of experienced joiners from making their own cutters, as Jacob often states he does. Up the ante to 200 feet of the same historic moulding and how do you think you would fare with hand tools versus modern tools and methods?

Here's a video from Bradshaw Joinery comparing speeds of hanging a door using a chisel method on one and a router with a jig for the other.



Spoiler alert: The router, including time to make the jig, was faster than the chisel method by nearly five minutes. With a jig already in hand, the router would be about 11 minutes faster than the chisel method.

 

[Jacob]

This is an impressive boast and ignores the capability of experienced joiners from making their own cutters, as Jacob often states he does. ....

I only make my own spindle moulder machine (shaper?) cutters. It's no boast it's surprisingly easy and it means you can run off 100s of ft of any moulding you choose, extremely accurately. It's also very much cheaper than router cutters and many times more productive.
PS just followed the router versus hand thing. I found it incredible. I would have hand-cut the hinge housings in a fraction of the time it would take to get the jig and everything together - unless the whole jig thing was carefully rehearsed, measured, practiced with everything set up and available before hand. House door hinges are on site and not in the workshop, which would be another level of difficulty with a jig, without elaborate preparations
If you had a lot of doors to do the jig and router would be quicker obviously.

 

[Molynoox]

This is an impressive boast and ignores the capability of experienced joiners from making their own cutters, as Jacob often states he does. Up the ante to 200 feet of the same historic moulding and how do you think you would fare with hand tools versus modern tools and methods?

Here's a video from Bradshaw Joinery comparing speeds of hanging a door using a chisel method on one and a router with a jig for the other.



Spoiler alert: The router, including time to make the jig, was faster than the chisel method by nearly five minutes. With a jig already in hand, the router would be about 11 minutes faster than the chisel method.

cool video, probably not the only one of its kind but the only one I've ever watched.
It would be interesting to see it done for tasks where it's a closer fight - I'm not sure which tasks they would be... sometimes I find myself faffing with a power tool like a circular saw because I forget that hand saws exist, that's often a faster solution as the hand saw can fit into tight little spaces that a power tool cant do so well

regarding that video - could a router plane be used to do hinges?

 

[Phil Pascoe]

There are any number of jobs that can be done with hand tools as a one off quicker than setting up machine tools to do them but as soon as more than one is involved the balance changes.

 

[MikeK]

I only make my own spindle moulder machine (shaper?) cutters. It's no boast it's surprisingly easy and it means you can run off 100s of ft of any moulding you choose, extremely accurately. It's also very much cheaper than router cutters and many times more productive.

That was my point. Doing small one of a kind jobs by hand might be faster than doing the same job with modern tools and techniques, but I doubt it will remain faster as the output increases.

I can repeatedly outrun my wife's Mustang off the line for a short distance. After that, all those ponies under the hood have the advantage. Given enough time, we can still cover the same distance, but I have no doubt that I will be more tired and miserable when I eventually cross the finish line.

 

[Jacob]

That was my point. Doing small one of a kind jobs by hand might be faster than doing the same job with modern tools and techniques, but I doubt it will remain faster as the output increases.

Well yes but very often in real work scenarios you only are required to just touch up one item without running off yards of the stuff, where machine will win every time. Similarly an axe is extremely useful for scribing things to fit but you wouldn't expect to find one on a production line!
PS just spotted Phil saying the same sort of thing!