I never thought that I'd say this but ...

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... everyone has thought conflict is the answer and ignored the right course of action which is diplomacy and de esculation which if America had stopped arms supplies to Israel it would have forced there hand to look at long term solutions and ask themselves why were they attacked.

Spectric, this is either a reflection of great naivity or a lack of reading. There cannot be any diplomacy that will lead to a two-state resolution. The simple reason being that Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran all state, quite emphatically, that their goal is the eradication - genocide - of Israel. They broadcast this. It is not disguised. When bloody students and protesters shout "From the River to the Sea" it stands for the eradication of Israel, wiped from the map!

The ONLY reason why Hamas and Hezbollah (as they have done in the past few days) have called for a cease fire is to regroup to engage afresh. Hamas then used a cease fire after the release of some hostages to launch missiles into Israel. Would you trust them?

The major calls for a cease fire is not for humanitarian reasons, despite what you think. The UN is so biased towards (and financed by) the radical Arab elements, that they also call for a ceasefire. This is not to protect the human lives in Gaza and Lebanon, but to aid in regrouping. Do you really believe that Hamas and Hezbollah care a whit about human lives? They all hide behind human shields. They encourage deaths of civilians. It is part of their strategy to drive up support in the West. What is so amazing - shocking - is the sympathy and support that these terrorist groups received before Israel retaliated!

There is so much more than can be written.

Regards from Perth

Derek
 
That statement is loaded. It is also incorrect

The State of Israel was created in 1948, proclaimed by David Ben-Gurion, the head of the Jewish Agency. U.S. President Harry S. Truman recognized the new nation on the same day. Fact #1.

Fact #2. There never has been a state called Palestine. When the call for Palestine is made, where do you think that it will be situated? Do you believe that any of the existing Arab countries will give up land to be called Palestine? The other option is that Israel gives up its land, which has been the drive by Arab states for the past 80 years. Do you think that is reasonable? Likely?

From Britannica: The name Palestine has long been in popular use as a general term to denote a traditional region, but this usage does not imply precise boundaries. https://www.britannica.com/place/Palestine

Yet the State of Palestine was recognised by the UN this year. F#ckwits, that they are.

Regards from Perth

Derek
Neither Israel nor Palestine existed before 1948

1)"there has never been a state called Palestine"

So what, the Zionist movement that started in the 19th century was about the creation of a Jewish national state.....they chose a place where people already lived.

You seem to be saying the people that existed there, have no right to a home



"When the call for Palestine is made, where do you think that it will be situated?
the people that make up Palestinian nationality were in the region already, so Israel has to make space.

The other option is that Israel gives up its land
and what is wrong with that?

they have constantly squeezed Palestinians into a smaller and smaller space.


Yet the State of Palestine was recognised by the UN this year. F#ckwits, that they are
Do you support the actions of the Netanyahus regime that has spent the last year bombing innocent Palestinian women and children relentlessly?

it seems from you comment you want Palestinians eradicated totally
 
There cannot be any diplomacy that will lead to a two-state resolution.
I agree

there is no chance whilst Netanyahu is using the conflict to cling to power


Spectric, this is either a reflection of great naivity or a lack of reading.
It would be most helpful if you tried to avoid ad hominem attacks

You are in very simple language saying anybody else who disagrees with you is wrong and stupid..........however that is not true, you hold a one sided view, it doesnt make you correct, just biased.
 
Criticism of the israeli state is not antisemitic. That is the first point.

Secondary, the attack by Hamas on israel was a retaliation for decades of oppression, and the vast majority of the victims were soldiers, as in israel the military are embedded into the population.

Thirdly. Hamas, Hezbollah have fired a lot of missiles, but the vast majority, by which I expect 99% have caused no casualties, whereas israel is indiscriminately putting top drawer missiles into family homes killing and maiming tens of thousands of completely innocent people.

A way to quantify that is . Do you live an a terraced house, a multi-story flat etc ?. So in other words you have neighbours.
Do you know what all of your immediate neighbours do ?. Maybe as a job you know one or two, but not everyone.
But say for example one of your neighbours had an affiliation with a banned group.
Do you think the government, would be justified to bombing the entire housing area, killing not only that neighbour and his family, but also your entire family and the families of your other neighbours.

Because that is exactly what israel is doing. You are not only arguing for that concept, but blaming the deaths of the innocent neighbours on those neighbours themselves.
Some strange logic, and dubious "facts" here.
Where do you get the idea that the vast majority of the victims of the Hezbollah attack were military?
Most sources seem to agree that the actual figure is somewhere between 3 and 4 hundred, out of over 1100, hardly the overwhelming majority.
So some sources for your opinion would be interesting.
Rockets. You appear to be saying that as most are intercepted that is ok?
Why do you think Hamas and Hezbollah go to the considerable effort and expense of launching them, to give the Israeli air defences some target practice?
The intention is to kill Israelis. They use mainly unguided weapons, so have no idea what they are going to hit, and they don't care. These are people who believe that the only good jew is a dead one. Men, women, children, military or civilian they don't care.
The multiple salvos of hundreds of missiles are presumably in the hope that they might overwhelm the defence system, much as this would appear to have been Iran's intention recently.
To argue that it doesn't matter because they get shot down beggars belief. The Nazi's fired thousands of V1 bombs at London during the war. Something like 90% were shot down, so was that a "no foul"?
Why are you not critical of the use of these weapons by Hamas and Hezbollah? Their intent is indiscriminate killing of the Israeli population, the fact that Israel's defences render them largely ineffective is completely irrelevant.
Hamas hiding within civilian infrastructure is in itself a war crime, you can understand why they do it, because in the past it guaranteed them a degree of immunity.
No civilised person would consider it acceptable to level an entire apartment block to kill a handful of people who lived in one flat, or to bomb a hospital because their enemies had set up under it.
Until relatively recently Israel would have shield away from such things, but not anymore.
It is quite clear now that they are quite prepared to accept huge collateral damage in pursuit of their objectives. This is of course quite wrong, and should be unequivocally condemned.
So as I have said many times before they are as bad as each other.
The very partisan views on either side, whether that Israel are entirely evil and Hamas Hezbollah merely oppressed freedom fighters, or that Hezbollah and Hamas are "getting what's coming to them" and Israel should be supported come what may, I find sickening.
I lay a major part of the blame at the feet of Donald Trump, and his hissy fit decision to scupper the deal with Iran.
He was of course quite right that it wasn't a very good deal, but that entirely missed the point. Given the historic relationship between Iran and the west ANY deal was a big step forward.
Had the various participants found it to their liking then it could have been built upon incrementally, to the benefit of all concerned. Had it continued then we would be unlikely to see Iran backing Hezbollah to the degree they are, or supplying weapons to the Russians for use in Ukraine.
Hamas might have been far less likely to have launched their attack had they know they would be alone to suffer the inevitable retaliation.
Conspiracy theorists would have us believe that Putin dictated the whole thing. Personally I think the explanation is much simpler.
Trump is a moron, who behaves like a bull in a china shop. He is simply too stupid to comprehend the subtleties of this sort of thing, or the potential long term consequences, in this case to have driven Iran from the beginnings of a working relationship with the west, straight into the arms of Putin.
 
I agree

there is no chance whilst Netanyahu is using the conflict to cling to power



It would be most helpful if you tried to avoid ad hominem attacks

You are in very simple language saying anybody else who disagrees with you is wrong and stupid..........however that is not true, you hold a one sided view, it doesnt make you correct, just biased.
I am not sure he is merely clinging to power. I know many Jews do not support the Israeli government in this. I know quite a few and even those who supported him initially no longer do so. But of course this is merely anecdotal, and based on the opinions of Jews living in the UK, rather than Israel.
Reports I have seen suggest that at home his popularity rating increased dramatically following the pager events, and other recent successful actions against Hamas leaders.
If correct then unfortunately that implies that his position is fairly secure, and the current gloves off no holds barred approach will continue.
 
I am not sure he is merely clinging to power. I know many Jews do not support the Israeli government in this. I know quite a few and even those who supported him initially no longer do so. But of course this is merely anecdotal, and based on the opinions of Jews living in the UK, rather than Israel.
Reports I have seen suggest that at home his popularity rating increased dramatically following the pager events, and other recent successful actions against Hamas leaders.
If correct then unfortunately that implies that his position is fairly secure, and the current gloves off no holds barred approach will continue.
I was thinking more of the charges of bribery, fraud and breach of trust charges against him.........all the time he maintains power and popularity as a war leader he can fend them off

he seems to me a bit like Trump in that respect
 
Sorry Derek. I stand by my comments and believe them to be true. That the UN agreed a state for the Jews, on land set out for them, they have continued to, illegally, occupy land outside of their designated area. Land which, although not designated as a state itself, was/is occupied by people on their own land.

Any land outside of the designated area, by international law, is not the property of the Jews but the property of the people who live and work on it. By your argument, the surrounding countries can occupy Israel. Is that's what's happening?

Palestine didn't exist in 1948, but neither did Israel.

Your 'history' is your version and you're welcome to it. Just don't expect me, or the millions of other westerners, who are seeing the Jews for what they are believe you .

At last the Jews showing us their true side at last. This is not anti-Semitic, Derek. It is the truth. Just as I think Russia is a good country, badly run, I think Israel is a good country, badly run. No peace as long as Benjamin Netanyahu remains in power. Even the Jewish people are moving against him.
I wish you wouldn't refer to "the Jews" when you mean the State of Israel, or do you?
I hope not, because they are not the same thing.
I would humbly suggest that comments like "the Jews showing us their true side" are indeed anti Semitic, and should be withdrawn. I know many Jews, most of whom do not support what the Israeli government are doing. I have little doubt they would find this sort of remark deeply offensive, and with justification.
 
Spectric has shown his true colours and antisemitic views in previous threads and when it's get to the point he feels he cannot counter the arguments he shuts the thread down. Just fyi.
Well, I'm closing the thread. It's easy to debate and discuss but some would rather argue and insult.
 
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