I never thought that I'd say this but ...

[Scruples]

I think that you need to read history and not quote the propaganda of radical Islam.

As soon as Israel became independent of the British Empire in 1948, all seven Arab countries which were independent at the time (Trans-Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and Yemen) attacked Israel in a war of aggression and attempted genocide. Four of these countries border Israel, and three of them (Trans-Jordan, Syria, and Egypt) managed to grab chunks of land.

They didn’t give this areas to the “Palestinians” to establish a “Palestine”, for the simple reason that Palestine didn’t exist. Rather, Trans-Jordan grabbed Judea and Samaria (including half of Jerusalem), and then imposed the colonial name “the West Bank” on the region and [illegally] annexed it. And then, since this Kingdom was no longer only east of the River Jordan, it dropped the “Trans-” from its name and became Jordan.

Syria managed to grab part of the Golan, and [equally illegally] annexed it.

Egypt managed to grab the Gaza region, and [equally illegally] annexed it.

In 1967, a grand coalition of 13 Arab and Muslim countries attacked Israel in another war of aggression and attempted genocide: Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Algeria, Morocco, Libya, Kuwait, Tunisia, Sudan, and Pakistan.

Israel again won, and again three countries which border Israel lost land:

Jordan lost Judea and Samaria (which the colonialists and their supporters still call “the West Bank”); Syria lost the Golan; and Egypt lost the Gaza region and the entire Sinai Desert.

Let's take two recent "land grabs" by Israel ....

The contentious West Bank is land that was specifically dedicated by the League of Nations for a Jewish state.

It is not “occupied”. It does not belong to the Arabs. It has never belonged to them.

Gaza was given back to Egypt by Israel in 2005. Egypt promptly washed their hands of it (since Palestinians have a nasty record of creating havoc in Arab states who accept them as refugees). We all know what happened to Gaza in the years since 2005!

So, please, do your homework before making contentious statements.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Sorry Derek. I stand by my comments and believe them to be true. That the UN agreed a state for the Jews, on land set out for them, they have continued to, illegally, occupy land outside of their designated area. Land which, although not designated as a state itself, was/is occupied by people on their own land.

Any land outside of the designated area, by international law, is not the property of the Jews but the property of the people who live and work on it. By your argument, the surrounding countries can occupy Israel. Is that's what's happening?

Palestine didn't exist in 1948, but neither did Israel.

Your 'history' is your version and you're welcome to it. Just don't expect me, or the millions of other westerners, who are seeing the Jews for what they are believe you .

At last the Jews showing us their true side at last. This is not anti-Semitic, Derek. It is the truth. Just as I think Russia is a good country, badly run, I think Israel is a good country, badly run. No peace as long as Benjamin Netanyahu remains in power. Even the Jewish people are moving against him.

 

[Scruples]

I think there's a good deal of truth in it. US foreign policy has consistently sought to expand and maintain free-market economies throughout the world, to the benefit of the US. As for Israel, we can't overlook that it's a pretty handy place for US controlled missiles in terms of control of the Middle East and oil supply? I'd say there's a fair bit of 'Empire' to their foreign policy, but I wouldn't say that's all there is to it.

Indeed. The US has interests all over the world with bases in strategic locations.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Scruples mate, when one goes to war, be prepared for loses. If one is going to attack another, don't expect them to turn the other cheek.

Do read the history of the Middle East, and avoid showing your ignorance. The land of Israel was identfied before 1945.

In 1939, the Woodhead Commission formed by the British government made these three proposal options:



The Jews accepted, and the Arabs rejected all three on the spot.

After WWII, the Anglo-American Committee offered this proposal in 1945:




Again, the Jews accepted, desperate to bring in the survivors of the Holocaust, while the Arabs again rejected the proposal.

The violence between Jews and Arabs, along with the attacks of both these parties against the now oppressive British rule, caused the British government to hand the issue of the Mandate for Palestine, inherited by the UN in Article 80 of the UN Charter, and in November 1947, the UN General Assembly voted in UNGAR 181 for the Partition of Palestine with this proposal:



Again, accepted by the Jews, rejected by the Arabs. That is when war broke out. Lands won, lands lost.

Here is a short video, dating from 2011, which is good summary ..



Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Rewound]

...at this moment in time, I really wish Trump was PM because, I think amazingly he's right. Israel will retaliate against Iran....and please don't all go off on Israel this, Israel that blah blah blah...they will. Accept it. It's going to happen/

So what would you they rather did? You have two choices ...the first is to take out as much as they can ...with US help, which is where Trump would come in as opposed to that lily-livered Biden ...of Iran's nuclear aspirations because, believe me, that is their declared aim. No if's...no but's. They want to destroy not only Israel but the West.

The second is to take out their oil refineries etc which will push up the price of oil, screw up the economies of large swathes of the world...

In my mind, it is a no-brainer since we know that the Israeli's will do something. Much, much better to take out their nuclear bomb aspirations. But Biden won't support this. Trump would.

Not sure if Trump is good for anything - bloke lies about everything, bit of a disaster if he wins the US election next month (and he could)

But back to Israel / Iran. On Oct 8th last year, Israel should have flattened Iran, bombed them back to the dark ages (which is culturally where they are). No point in attacking Hamas Hezzbollah, Houtis without first destroying Iran

As the saying goes, Cut off the head of the snake! (although we could end up with a Hercules / Hydra situation where for every head cut off two grows back)

 

[Scruples]

Derek,
I accept your comments. or rather, I accept that your comments are yours, and won't be altered by any argument.
So, we part the ways and keep our own views and observations. We'll both watch the future with interest. Me, from a neutral stance and you with yours. The future will dictate the outcomes, if there are any, not the past.

Personally, as I have stated before, the troubles in the Middle East are keeping the West safer. It seems that some put those troubles ahead of humanitarianism.

 

[RobinBHM]

Oh absolutely. That was a terrible massacre, which of course could have been avoided

Saying "it couldve been avoided" is not condemning it

Do you condemn the atrocities committed by Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran?

Last time i checked Ukraine wasnt a NATO member. Yet the US is supplying them with war weapons of all calibers. We are all aware that this is a proxy action.

No it is not a proxy action

Putin is a brutal Imperialist dictator who is on record for saying he wants to be like Peter the Great

Putin sent in Wagner group and Russian separatists in 2014 to conquer the Donbas region, following a 8 year war, he then chose to escalate with a full scale invasion.

Ukraine is a European country, it wants to become part of the EU, so the West has every right defend itself against Putins aggression.

Please avoid trying to frame Putin as the victim, he is not.



Putin has spent years trying to destabilase the EU, he supported Assad in Syria with every intention of forcing refugees to spread into the EU, he bombed Ukraine which cause mass migration of refugees and he used his mates in Belarus to transfer loads of migrants there by plane so get them to disperse into Europe

I have no doubt that the conflict in middle east has been stirred massively by Putin, he is involved in funding Hamas and Hezbollah.

 

[Sean33]

Do you think that is useful to the debate?

Can I ask why you do not think this is useful to the debate ?

 

[RobinBHM]

So, please, do your homework before making contentious statements

are your statements not "contentious"

one persons bias is another persons "fact"

for the simple reason that Palestine didn’t exist.

strawman argument, Israel didnt exist either

the lack of a formal country of Palestine does not remove the rights of the Palestinian people


Palestine was home to a diverse population of Arabs, Jews, and Christians, as all groups had religious ties to the area, especially the city of Jerusalem. The land itself was under the control of various empires, such as the Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Byzantines, and eventually the Islamic Caliphate and the Ottoman Empire.

 

[RobinBHM]

Can I ask why you do not think this is useful to the debate ?

simple: because it is false, it is attempting to reduce the argument to meaningless binary arguments.
What Triton is trying to prove with the meme is "America Bad"

to turn it into something useful to the debate would require an analysis of the causes behind every single one of those conflicts.

lets take Afghanistan as an example:

America first went after Bin Laden as revenge for 9/11 its purpose was to destroy the terrorist organisation Al-Qaeda
that then developed into trying to remove the Taliban

The Taliban are a group that suppresses womens rights



so Tritons meme is saying that stopping the suppression of womens right is a Bad thing.................do you agree?

 

[RobinBHM]

and avoid showing your ignorance

ad hominem attack

commonly used by people who use it deflect from the weakness of their argument.............as soon as I see an ad hominem, I look for the flaws in the argument

just a thought

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

So, Robin, had he done his research then?

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

are your statements not "contentious"

one persons bias is another persons "fact"


strawman argument, Israel didnt exist either

the lack of a formal country of Palestine does not remove the rights of the Palestinian people


Palestine was home to a diverse population of Arabs, Jews, and Christians, as all groups had religious ties to the area, especially the city of Jerusalem. The land itself was under the control of various empires, such as the Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Byzantines, and eventually the Islamic Caliphate and the Ottoman Empire.

Robin, you are referring to my facts as opinion. They are facts. They can be substantiated.

Not a strawman argument since I stated factual information about the topic under review: that "The land of Israel was identified before 1945". I could have stated, being more pedantic, "the land to be called Israel". All one and the same.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Jake]

At last the Jews showing us their true side at last. This is not anti-Semitic, Derek. It is the truth. Just as I think Russia is a good country, badly run, I think Israel is a good country, badly run. No peace as long as Benjamin Netanyahu remains in power. Even the Jewish people are moving against him.

I am more on your side than not on the facts on the ground, but that first sentence above is highly anti-Semitic. Indeed, as the last sentence shows, you cannot conflate the actions of the (and an awful) government of Israel and some of its inhabitants with the Jewish race or say that those actions are the "true side" of Jews without being absolutely anti-Semitic.

Poorly phrased at best.

 

[RobinBHM]

Robin, you are referring to my facts as opinion. They are facts. They can be substantiated.

Not a strawman argument since I stated factual information about the topic under review: that "The land of Israel was identified before 1945". I could have stated, being more pedantic, "the land to be called Israel". All one and the same.

Regards from Perth

Derek

yes you are correct, what you have stated are facts and can be substantiated

However you have cherry picked some facts, isolated them from history removed the detail, then conflated those to claim they are evidence of the overall situation...that is falsely stating opinion as fact, as it doesnt prove what you claim.



lets examine this an example from one point from your post:

you state that the Jews accepted the 1939 Woodhead commission Partition plan whilst the Arabs rejected it. You present that as evidence the Arabs didnt want a solution and are to blame for continuing unrest

But you fail to mention there was a justified reason for them to reject the plan: The Palestinian Arab leadership rejected partition as unacceptable, given the inequality in the proposed population exchange and the transfer of one-third of Palestine, including most of its best agricultural land, to recent immigrants.


You also fail to mention the 1938 Woodhead commission plan was rejected by the Jews and Arabs

https://thejudean.com/index.php/history/68-the-1938-woodhead-commission

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unite...ected,agricultural land, to recent immigrants.

 

[RobinBHM]

So, Robin, had he done his research then?

Regards from Perth

Derek

do you agree with the following:

Palestine didn't exist in 1948, but neither did Israel.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

do you agree with the following:

Scruples said:
Palestine didn't exist in 1948, but neither did Israel.

That statement is loaded. It is also incorrect

The State of Israel was created in 1948, proclaimed by David Ben-Gurion, the head of the Jewish Agency. U.S. President Harry S. Truman recognized the new nation on the same day. Fact #1.

Fact #2. There never has been a state called Palestine. When the call for Palestine is made, where do you think that it will be situated? Do you believe that any of the existing Arab countries will give up land to be called Palestine? The other option is that Israel gives up its land, which has been the drive by Arab states for the past 80 years. Do you think that is reasonable? Likely?

From Britannica: The name Palestine has long been in popular use as a general term to denote a traditional region, but this usage does not imply precise boundaries. https://www.britannica.com/place/Palestine

Yet the State of Palestine was recognised by the UN this year. F#ckwits, that they are.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Spectric]

The Coup in Iran was the CIA's first successful coup operation.

So another situation where American involvement started a chain of events that have now got us to where we are today, when will they actually learn to keep there noses out of other countries affairs.

Has anyone actually stopped and thought about why for so many centuries that the Jews have been persecuted by every nation on the planet and also blamed for so much, maybe nety nu nu is giving us all the answer in that he believes that he has the right to exterminate anyone he so desires and is untouchable by international law.

 

[Spectric]

On Oct 8th last year, Israel should have flattened Iran

They knew that the losses would cost nu nu his job because it would have ignited all out war in the middle east and they still do not know who else will get involved. Iran is an ideal place for countries like China to test there weapons against the western systems.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Has anyone actually stopped and thought about why for so many centuries that the Jews have been persecuted by every nation on the planet and also blamed for so much, maybe nety nu nu is giving us all the answer in that he believes that he has the right to exterminate anyone he so desires and is untouchable by international law.

This is such an antisemitic post. Incredible! It is just fishing for negative responses.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Spectric]

This is such an antisemitic post. Incredible! It is just fishing for negative responses.

Nothing antisementic intended but everything has a starting point and does not just happen instantanously, things build up and if they are not addressed soon enough they get out of control and end up far worse as history has shown. This current crisis is a good example, everyone has thought conflict is the answer and ignored the right course of action which is diplomacy and de esculation which if America had stopped arms supplies to Israel it would have forced there hand to look at long term solutions and ask themselves why were they attacked. The solution is obvious, the two sides will never get on and therefore need separation so just build a wall to keep them apart and look at the so called two state solution which is long overdue and these issues are also long overdue for resolution.

It is just fishing for negative responses.

No responses are sought but to solve any problem nothing should be left unspoken, for a good outcome you need all the data put in and it was a straight question that has been discussed many times but with no proper answer and is historically correct but why ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews