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I bought a sharpening jig
- Thread starter Jacob
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Jacob
What goes around comes around.
I've had another go with it. It works really well. Quick and easy to fit and adjust (25 or 30º). Well out of the way when you turn to remove the burr. Cambers and uneven stones no prob.
I guess the wheel/axle would wear out fast with regular use. The nut is 11mm so it wouldn't fit some blades but Stanley/Record/copies OK
I'd recommend it to a beginner who feels a bit timid about sharpening - as you certainly would if you saw this first! :lol: In fact if I was Mr Veritas I'd look at this one as a model for the MKIII. It could be a huge improvement on the MKII.
A few goes and you'd get the hang of holding it at the chosen angle and you could dump the gadget in the bin where it belongs.
I guess the wheel/axle would wear out fast with regular use. The nut is 11mm so it wouldn't fit some blades but Stanley/Record/copies OK
I'd recommend it to a beginner who feels a bit timid about sharpening - as you certainly would if you saw this first! :lol: In fact if I was Mr Veritas I'd look at this one as a model for the MKIII. It could be a huge improvement on the MKII.
A few goes and you'd get the hang of holding it at the chosen angle and you could dump the gadget in the bin where it belongs.
iNewbie
Established Member
Corneel":1okfkg8s said:
Practice does not make perfect. Only Perfect practice makes perfect - Vince Lombardi.
bugbear
Established Member
Jacob":3kig2vfh said:
Jacob":3kig2vfh said:
Jacob":3kig2vfh said:
B Franklin":3kig2vfh said:
BugBear
caroleb
Established Member
:lol:
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
I see you are immersed in my archive as usual BB.
Most jigs only work with straight edges and flat stones as the roller/wheel set up is wide and the tool difficult to tilt and the edge has to be aligned with the rollers. Kell probably the worst.
This one has a single narrow wheel and so is not a problem. It's still pointless, but less of a problem than many of the others.
Most jigs only work with straight edges and flat stones as the roller/wheel set up is wide and the tool difficult to tilt and the edge has to be aligned with the rollers. Kell probably the worst.
This one has a single narrow wheel and so is not a problem. It's still pointless, but less of a problem than many of the others.
Carl P
Established Member
When you said you'd bought a sharpening jig I was going to say 'say it aint so Jo'
But....
So, obviously, I needn't have worried
Our world remains safely unchanged.
Cheerio,
Carl
But....
Jacob":2lu5l0we said:
So, obviously, I needn't have worried
Our world remains safely unchanged.
Cheerio,
Carl
woodbrains
Established Member
Hello,
Cannot see the problem with the Veritas literature. If you try to write down how to tie a shoelace, you'd probably end up with pages and pages of text, but we all know it is simple to do, once done a couple of times. Same with the Veritas honing jig. I don't think it takes more than about 10 seconds to employ, but repeatability is a timesaver and if you want to experiment with back bevels, it is a great tool. I have a smoother set up for cranky grain which has a 20 deg primary and a 10 deg back bevel, giving and EP of 55 deg. Cannot do this easily freehand without the danger of having not enough relief angle.
Mike.
Cannot see the problem with the Veritas literature. If you try to write down how to tie a shoelace, you'd probably end up with pages and pages of text, but we all know it is simple to do, once done a couple of times. Same with the Veritas honing jig. I don't think it takes more than about 10 seconds to employ, but repeatability is a timesaver and if you want to experiment with back bevels, it is a great tool. I have a smoother set up for cranky grain which has a 20 deg primary and a 10 deg back bevel, giving and EP of 55 deg. Cannot do this easily freehand without the danger of having not enough relief angle.
Mike.
Random Orbital Bob
Established Member
I for one am actually glad you at least tried a jig Jacob. I appreciate your perspective on doing it by hand hasn't changed a great deal but at least it can't be said that you didn't give it a try. You clearly understood its merits and even tipped your hat to the possibility it might assist a new woodworker.
And OK, its not for you, but this is the thing with sharpening isn't it, its about choice. Your championship of traditional techniques is a perspective (that though somewhat dogmatic at times) I quite enjoy and certainly would feel this forum would be the poorer without it. It's a bit like old style hardware shops, with the brown overall clad servers akin to the fork handles 2 Ronnies sketch. Mostly gone now but when you occasionally find one it reminds you of messing about with wood with Dad.
Some attacks on your posts I find offensive frankly, they're personal at best and bordering on persecution at worst.
And OK, its not for you, but this is the thing with sharpening isn't it, its about choice. Your championship of traditional techniques is a perspective (that though somewhat dogmatic at times) I quite enjoy and certainly would feel this forum would be the poorer without it. It's a bit like old style hardware shops, with the brown overall clad servers akin to the fork handles 2 Ronnies sketch. Mostly gone now but when you occasionally find one it reminds you of messing about with wood with Dad.
Some attacks on your posts I find offensive frankly, they're personal at best and bordering on persecution at worst.
Corneel
Established Member
The Mk2 had me fuming out of my ears. There are just too many opportunities to make a mistake, and it took me twice as much time as the eclipse to set it up. The microbevel adjuster gave me a huge amount of skew in the microbevel. The second one I got has the same error. Then they wanted to sell me the camber roller to solve that problem. For me that was the limit and I sold the whole contraption to another beginner. :twisted: Maybe these experiences tainted my opinion about the jig a little bit. Doing backbevels with a jig is extra irritating, because you have to do the setup ritual twice!
Anyway, what do you reckon to be the minimal clearance angle for a high angle plane, Mike? The bevel ups cope with 12 degrees, don't they?
Anyway, what do you reckon to be the minimal clearance angle for a high angle plane, Mike? The bevel ups cope with 12 degrees, don't they?
I like Chris Schwarz's closing lines in his recent post: http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodw ... one-please
CHJ
Established Member
woodbrains
Established Member
Hello,
I'm sorry Corneel had a bad experience with the Veritas jig. They are not for everyone, anyway, so if they don't suit, don't bother with them. I have always said it is fine to, and indeed do free hand sharpening. The point I was making was about the literature that comes with the jig. Text often makes things sound more complex than it is, the contention that they actually are complex, simply by referring only to the text, is misleading. People who use the Eclipse type jig (I have owned and used those too) generally find a strip of plywood with a stop glued to it, is a simple and worthwhile setting gauge. This is all the Veritas has done, with the benefit of this gauge being pre-settable. Once the gauge is set to the users preference, I don't think the jig is any more complex to use than the Eclipse, and you just go through all the blades that need sharpening at that setting, speedily and repeatedly. I like using them for back bevels, though I got a bit confused with my last post, through speed. I meant to add that adding back bevels to BU planes is dangerous freehand as the relief angle quickly disappears, but a 2 degree back bevel is easily achieved, so a relief angle of 10 degrees on a LA plane is about the minimum allowance. The jig is a tool which does have uses which may or may not be appropriate to the end user. If someone doesn't require the uses to which they may be put, does not mean the tool is useless.
Jacob should not try to bamboozle the uninitiated by false advertising.
Mike.
I'm sorry Corneel had a bad experience with the Veritas jig. They are not for everyone, anyway, so if they don't suit, don't bother with them. I have always said it is fine to, and indeed do free hand sharpening. The point I was making was about the literature that comes with the jig. Text often makes things sound more complex than it is, the contention that they actually are complex, simply by referring only to the text, is misleading. People who use the Eclipse type jig (I have owned and used those too) generally find a strip of plywood with a stop glued to it, is a simple and worthwhile setting gauge. This is all the Veritas has done, with the benefit of this gauge being pre-settable. Once the gauge is set to the users preference, I don't think the jig is any more complex to use than the Eclipse, and you just go through all the blades that need sharpening at that setting, speedily and repeatedly. I like using them for back bevels, though I got a bit confused with my last post, through speed. I meant to add that adding back bevels to BU planes is dangerous freehand as the relief angle quickly disappears, but a 2 degree back bevel is easily achieved, so a relief angle of 10 degrees on a LA plane is about the minimum allowance. The jig is a tool which does have uses which may or may not be appropriate to the end user. If someone doesn't require the uses to which they may be put, does not mean the tool is useless.
Jacob should not try to bamboozle the uninitiated by false advertising.
Mike.
Corneel
Established Member
I am curious about the clearance angle. How much do you really need, under what circumstances? Which factors influence this, What happens when the clearance angle gets less? Is it a factor when the edge dulls? Time for some experimenting I guess.
With a freshly sharpened blade in a 45 degree plane I can plane long grain with astonishing low clearance angles, almost with the bevel touching the wood, without feeling much difference and without seeing anything special in the wood. Oak, pine or maple, doesn't matter. In endgrain though, I get burnished spots in the wood when the clearance angle dives under 8 degrees or so, in hard maple.
With a freshly sharpened blade in a 45 degree plane I can plane long grain with astonishing low clearance angles, almost with the bevel touching the wood, without feeling much difference and without seeing anything special in the wood. Oak, pine or maple, doesn't matter. In endgrain though, I get burnished spots in the wood when the clearance angle dives under 8 degrees or so, in hard maple.
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Er I don't quite follow that. Not least cos a 55º EP is really easy to achieve freehand on any plane BU or BD without touching the relief angle at all. Why would you need a jig? Why a 20º "primary" bevel? Is this some sort of competition?woodbrains":j7z0dpn7 said:
PS "repeatability" isn't a problem freehand - the secret is to do it the same way every time. Obvious if you think about it. :roll:
woodbrains
Established Member
Hello,
Jacob, a main bevel of 20deg and a back bevel of 10 in a BD plane will give an EP of 55 and one of 15 deg and EP of 60. BUT we still have an included angle of 30 or 35 on the blade, so we still have a fine cutting edge, no different than honing a 30 deg bevel on a regular plane irons main bevel. You see, the jig is handy for non-regular sharpening needs.
Corneel, I think you are right about the back bevel on a BU plane needing to be above 8 deg, I think 10 more likely. Once a wear bevel appears during use, any less of a clearance angle will soon disappear and make it difficult/impossible to plane. I do fine a back bevel on BU planes useful, though, but keeping them small.
Mike.
Jacob, a main bevel of 20deg and a back bevel of 10 in a BD plane will give an EP of 55 and one of 15 deg and EP of 60. BUT we still have an included angle of 30 or 35 on the blade, so we still have a fine cutting edge, no different than honing a 30 deg bevel on a regular plane irons main bevel. You see, the jig is handy for non-regular sharpening needs.
Corneel, I think you are right about the back bevel on a BU plane needing to be above 8 deg, I think 10 more likely. Once a wear bevel appears during use, any less of a clearance angle will soon disappear and make it difficult/impossible to plane. I do fine a back bevel on BU planes useful, though, but keeping them small.
Mike.
bugbear
Established Member
Corneel":3nv94ad4 said:
Wow! Do I gather you did the experiments, with all the regrinding involved?!
BugBear
Corneel
Established Member
Everything noteworthy happens within 0.1 mm from the edge, so I didn't completely regrind the bevel, but increased the microbevel angle. Only once at the end to get back to normal did I grind.
There are two important aspects in a dull edge, loss of clearance because of the bulging clearance wear bevel, and the rounding of the very tip of the edge. When you increase the sharpening angle you strengthen the edge, so I think rounding would slow down, but you also reduce clearance so you sooner run out of it. So it is a question of which one goes faster, and what is the best balance between the two.
There are two important aspects in a dull edge, loss of clearance because of the bulging clearance wear bevel, and the rounding of the very tip of the edge. When you increase the sharpening angle you strengthen the edge, so I think rounding would slow down, but you also reduce clearance so you sooner run out of it. So it is a question of which one goes faster, and what is the best balance between the two.
bugbear
Established Member
Thinking that I might have missed a forgotten classic, I headed for my workshop. From the box
of "jigs I don't use very often" I pulled my 50p Stanley #50a.
It's certainly easy to fit, since the knurled knob is sized
to pass through the hole in the blade that the cap iron
screw fts. The projection gauge isn't on the face side, but the bevel
side, so it's not quite as easy as it could be to line up.
Once fitted, the projection hangs down on the underside, so you have
to find a spare finger or two to hang on to it during the actual sharpening,
As a jig - yeah, it works. It can't really fail - a roller at the right height,
not rocket science.
I noted that I tended to come off the back of the stone with it,
and a quick comparison with the Eclipse #36 revealed the reason.
The edge-to-bearing distance in the Eclipse is 62mm, but the Stanley is 87mm.
Using a 8x2 stone (sorry to mix units) this means the maximum honing stroke
is 141mm with the Eclipse and 116mm with the Stanley; 80% as long,
or a loss of (obviously) 25mm.
Now larger edge-bearing distances have two effects. The downside
is a reduced stroke length; the upside is that it is easier to apply
more pressure to the edge. I think Stanley got the choice here slightly
wrong.
As a final data point, in a 1964 Buck and Hickman catalogue the Eclipse #36 cost 15/-, and the Stanley
#50a 5/6.
Using this calculator I make that £22.12 and £8.14 respectively.
BugBear
of "jigs I don't use very often" I pulled my 50p Stanley #50a.
It's certainly easy to fit, since the knurled knob is sized
to pass through the hole in the blade that the cap iron
screw fts. The projection gauge isn't on the face side, but the bevel
side, so it's not quite as easy as it could be to line up.
Once fitted, the projection hangs down on the underside, so you have
to find a spare finger or two to hang on to it during the actual sharpening,
As a jig - yeah, it works. It can't really fail - a roller at the right height,
not rocket science.
I noted that I tended to come off the back of the stone with it,
and a quick comparison with the Eclipse #36 revealed the reason.
The edge-to-bearing distance in the Eclipse is 62mm, but the Stanley is 87mm.
Using a 8x2 stone (sorry to mix units) this means the maximum honing stroke
is 141mm with the Eclipse and 116mm with the Stanley; 80% as long,
or a loss of (obviously) 25mm.
Now larger edge-bearing distances have two effects. The downside
is a reduced stroke length; the upside is that it is easier to apply
more pressure to the edge. I think Stanley got the choice here slightly
wrong.
As a final data point, in a 1964 Buck and Hickman catalogue the Eclipse #36 cost 15/-, and the Stanley
#50a 5/6.
Using this calculator I make that £22.12 and £8.14 respectively.
BugBear
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
You have to hold it at the right angle to use the full length of the stone and not just feebly drop over the edge. Try a bit harder!bugbear":1dc5khbs said:
Good point. This is why it works better than the others - more downwards pressure is possible. The other major advantage is that it isn't in the way when you turn over to remove the burr. In fact I think it is a forgotten classic. Often the simplest things get overlooked - there's a fascination in the ludicrous pseudo technical complexity of the Veritas MkII etc
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