How would you stop knife crime?

[Digit]

True Mark, for example for many years ago the police officers on the beat wore blue serge uniforms. The reason was that in London's east end during the 19 C they were not infrequently doused with lamp oil a set on fire. The serge tended not to burn too well.
Equally correct with those figures is that in the early 1950s the total number of reported burglaries for England were less than is current for one London borough.

Roy.

 

[Smudger]

Also - the murders took place amongst the working classes (1 middle class death against 55 working class) and were just considered to be natural.

The fuss over Jack the Ripper was really the fear that he would leave the East End and start killing in the West End, not outrage that prostitutes were being killed.

There are no simple (or cheap) answers to these issues. And answers which simply recreate the problem through violence redirected or reduction of liberty simply don't work.

Listening to young people would be a start.

 

[davegw]

Listening to young people would be a start.

Blimey Dick, careful now - all this talk of revolution will scare of the natives!

 

[Digit]

Listening to young people would be a start.

I'm willing! Just as soon as they learn to speak English :lol:

Roy.

 

[woody67]

I was doing some work with Year 8 history classes this week, looking at deaths in the Putney and Roehampton Health District in 1871.

Dick, where did you get your info? Is it public domain? It's certainly getting me interested to the point I want to quote facts and figures in my lectures.

Mark

 

[Rich]

Smudger, SURELY The youngsters should be listening to those who know best, ie, their elders, if not their parents, I agree, we must listen to their concerns, but when they start paying the bills, then they can call the shots, and not before, it's called coming of age and realising your responsibilities in life, are you advocating that a 20 year old, for instance should lead the country, of course you are not, but, one must lead by example, children are children, and that is that, being an adult is a state of mind, not merely being 21, some people don't become adult until their 40,s.

Rich.

 

[Digit]

On Question Time from Glasgow last night it was stated that they virtually zeroed razor slashings overnight in the city with 10 year prison sentences

Roy.

 

[Smudger]

Smudger, SURELY The youngsters should be listening to those who know best, ie, their elders, if not their parents, I agree, we must listen to their concerns, but when they start paying the bills, then they can call the shots, and not before, it's called coming of age and realising your responsibilities in life, are you advocating that a 20 year old, for instance should lead the country, of course you are not, but, one must lead by example, children are children, and that is that, being an adult is a state of mind, not merely being 21, some people don't become adult until their 40,s.

Rich.

What I'm suggesting, is that instead of a lot of middle aged people with no real experience of the issues coming up with the same old failed ideas we actually ask young people why they behave in that way. And possibly try to help instead of just condemning them.

Don't make up a different version of what I am saying to suit yout own agenda.

 

[Slim]

Completely agree with you Dick. (do you need to sit down? :lol: )

Brand them criminals and thugs, and that is what they will be.

 

[Rich]

Dick, if the middle aged people have no idea of the issues, then what hope is there for the young ones, I have NOT tried to change your agenda but merely given, what I thought was a helpful comment, not advice, anyway, see it as you will,.
Rich.

 

[Smudger]

In fact, most kids carrying knives do so because they are scared of the much smaller number that do...

 

[Digit]

I was going to make that same point Dick, so you have answered your own point about asking the youths.

Roy.

 

[Smudger]

Rich - I honestly don't think you do have an idea about the issues here. Your posts illustrate that.

This is a complicated situation, which is different in different places and for kids of different ages. There is no one 'problem'.

It is partially related to gang culture, and I don't think you understand how that operates.

It is partly related to other behaviour patterns such as video game and film watching. There are crossover issues here in which the grasp on reality can be seriously eroded.

There are mental health issues, some of which are related to the easy (often subsidised) availability of powerful recreational drugs. Others may be linked to emotional abuse and neglect.

There are serious issues of self-esteem and self-worth, social and educational failure.

There are problems of a society which makes certain assumptions about youths from ethnic minorities.

There are serious failures of parenting. Some of these are cultural, some are due to fractured social networks. Some are simply due to inadequate people becoming parents.

There has been a tendency for policing to back off from many of these issues.

Our society does not intervene in families at anything like the rate it once used to.

Many families in inner cities live in crushing poverty. Unemployment and the concomitant loss of self-esteem is high amongst some groups.

Young people have become demonised, so there is no motivation to listen to them or to try to meet their genuine needs.

I could go on...

 

[Digit]

And some are just plain nasty!

Roy.

 

[dennis]

Rich

You say that being an adult is a state of mind not an age which is true but it is only when you get older that you understand this.I for one and I dont doubt that many others on this forum did, thought that I was an adult when I left school and started work at 15 it is only with age that you realise how wrong you were,the same applies to knowing better than your elders, as a youngster you think that you know better and I dont think this will ever change.

Dennis

 

[Jake]

This is a complicated situation, which is different in different places and for kids of different ages. There is no one 'problem'....

snip loads of thoughtful insights

The fascinating, authentic stuff of experience.

Where do you teach?

 

[Rich]

Smudger, I HONESTLY believe you speak from the heart, and I commend that, but goodwill gestures and feeling sorry for the people commiting these crimes HAS NOT worked, as I said before, I don't know the answer, but being kind to these types does NOT work. I have no problems with my 2 boys.
Who created the social environment we now live in,? as a married man with 2 kids, I can tell you that we would be better off if we were both out of work and claiming benefits, how can that be right, my 2 lads see a responsible attitude from their parents and will no doubt follow the example, we ask for no help from the government other than fair taxation, as do the majority of middle income families, life is only as hard as you make it, some prefer not to try, how odd that that is where the problems come from.

Rich.

 

[Digit]

Part of Smudger's argument appears to break down when tested against the the society in this country during the Depression, when unemployment was percentage wise very high, real poverty existed, living conditions considerable worse than current and crime a fraction of today's figures.

Roy.

 

[Rich]

Dennis, you're right, I thought I knew it all when I was 15, but I never had thoughts of harming people, I was more interested in the opposite sex.
Rich.

 

[Finial]

Smudger lists some of the many factors contributing to the problem. Which of them are most relevant and what the ansers are would need a lot of hard research work to unravel. Until that definitive work is done, none of us can do more than betray our prejudices. My pet theory is that we need more of a zero tolerance approach to minor offences. Not harsh punishments, just letting people see from an early age that society has enforced rules of respect to others. If policing, whether by the police themselves or parents or teachers or the public is not enough to curb bad behavior it may become commonplace, then kids have to show aggression to appear tough, ie not a push-over. I would not want kids to be treated as criminals if they carry a knife in self defence or as a fashion accessory, the answer needs to be to stop knives being used as weapons. When i was young i carried a knife at school and so did other kids, but none of us would have dreamt of using them as weapons.

But i don't put this forward as the solution, like i said the work has to be done. The trouble is that some people are convinced that harsh discipline is the answer and not inclined to listen to other possibilities.