How would you price these doors?

[Russ]

I wonder if any of you guys can help.

I've been asked to quote for some doors, not that I often make them but after posting off the quote the customer has replied stating that the quote is too high.

These are double doors in pine that I will paint, make frame and fit.

Any ball park figures will be gratefully received.

Overall dimensions 110 x 215 cm.

Cheers

Russ

 

[CNC Paul]

Russ,

I take it from the design they are to be fitted in France ?

I am pretty sure you will be paying a different price for materials, what are your material costs in France ?

 

[Russ]

Russ,

I take it from the design they are to be fitted in France ?

I am pretty sure you will be paying a different price for materials, what are your material costs in France ?

Thanks Paul

Wood here is generally cheaper but running a business can be costly as roughly 48% of the profit from each job gets sucked-up in taxes and social contributions etc.

Materials for the doors total around 240 quid and thats using some very nice american pitch pine. Just trying to compare what other makers would charge?

Cheers

 

[Dibs-h]

Russ,

I take it from the design they are to be fitted in France ?

I am pretty sure you will be paying a different price for materials, what are your material costs in France ?

Thanks Paul

Wood here is generally cheaper but running a business can be costly as roughly 48% of the profit from each job gets sucked-up in taxes and social contributions etc.

Materials for the doors total around 240 quid and thats using some very nice american pitch pine. Just trying to compare what other makers would charge?

Cheers

Have you estimated how long it would take you to make them, priced up the materials? Do you know what your overheads are per hour\day?

If so - and the quote provided includes a reasonable element of profit - I'd tell the "customer" to fcek off and get them made elsewhere if they can. Sorry to come across as all harsh and stuff - but you've got overheads, costs, taxes to pay and do they (the customer) seriously think you as the supplier are going to subsidise their flash looking doors! Why - it's not like you married to his daughter or something.

Sorry - rant over.

Dibs

 

[Russ]

I'm just curious as to how much any of you chaps reckon you could make them for?

Cheers Dibs, I guess between 4-5 days in total but you know how these things are. He's also a brit so I'm sure he's weighing up the conversion between stirling/euro, not my fault the funny money is overvalued as I get customers nagging on about it all the time, I think sometimes they live in France but their heads are still in the UK, either that or just trying it on.

Russ

 

[big soft moose]

I'm just curious as to how much any of you chaps reckon you could make them for?

Cheers Dibs, I guess between 4-5 days in total but you know how these things are. He's also a brit so I'm sure he's weighing up the conversion between stirling/euro, not my fault the funny money is overvalued as I get customers nagging on about it all the time, I think sometimes they live in France but their heads are still in the UK, either that or just trying it on.

Russ

I dont do woodwork proffesionally, but when I was costing contracting work (chainsaw, gardening, the ocassional bit of hard landscaping etc) I generally worked to a basic of £200 per day - and I doubt your time is worth less than mine

so you'd be looking at 800-1000 for labour , plus the materials cost plus any overhead - you'd probably be looking at the best part of £2k - but that aint economic for a set of doors so you'd have to come down - and it may be that the job just isnt going to be profitable for you unless you can find a way of making them faster - so dibs may be right about telling the customer to go and do one

you might want to ask over the otherside as there are more pros lurking there, and I recall a number of door threads

 

[CNC Paul]

£1950. this would include using a moulding cutter you have already.

What did you quote?

 

[Dibs-h]

Russ

A couple of years ago I can across some interesting posts on JLC - Journal of Light Construction - US based admittedly, but financial discussions are financial discussions, just the specifics vary - i.e. we have VAT and they have GST, you get the drift. The posts centred on pricing methodologies and the pros and cons of what seemed to be the 2 main methods,

Traditional Volume Based Markup or Capacity Based markup - I found the articles certainly gave a lot of food for thought and made you think about things which you ordinarily would never have thought about.

http://paradigm-360.com/markup-pricing/ ... sed-markup

Represents a good starting point - with fairly well worked examples. Whilst I'm not teaching anyone to suck eggs or saying their pricing methods are wrong - food for thought, if nothing else.

HIH

Dibs

Edit: BSM - I know what you mean about economic (or not) to produce, but that would be if the same design is readily available but you don't quite like the colour or finish. The moment you step into Custom work - the comparison\s fall by the wayside, and the customer should perhaps be told as much. Russ - if the customer says he can get them made cheaper, ask him to get them made and you'd happily sub your door making to whoever he finds (assuming the quality is there) and this chap will be paid a referral fee. Usually kills the conversation and you subsequently find them coming back, 'cos they couldn't find anyone. At which point deposit up front - 'cos they having the makings of an @rse & you don't need the headache.

 

[JonnyD]

Are the door internal or external?

I would say a ball park figure from myself would be about £1200 internal £1500 external

article looks interesting dibs will check it out when i have some time

cheers

jon

 

[Russ]

£1950. this would include using a moulding cutter you have already.

What did you quote?

Quoted 1100 euros + 19.6 vat which is a fair price...

Maybe I should move onto the next job?

 

[Russ]

I'm just curious as to how much any of you chaps reckon you could make them for?

Cheers Dibs, I guess between 4-5 days in total but you know how these things are. He's also a brit so I'm sure he's weighing up the conversion between stirling/euro, not my fault the funny money is overvalued as I get customers nagging on about it all the time, I think sometimes they live in France but their heads are still in the UK, either that or just trying it on.

Russ

I dont do woodwork proffesionally, but when I was costing contracting work (chainsaw, gardening, the ocassional bit of hard landscaping etc) I generally worked to a basic of £200 per day - and I doubt your time is worth less than mine

Wise words

Cheers

so you'd be looking at 800-1000 for labour , plus the materials cost plus any overhead - you'd probably be looking at the best part of £2k - but that aint economic for a set of doors so you'd have to come down - and it may be that the job just isnt going to be profitable for you unless you can find a way of making them faster - so dibs may be right about telling the customer to go and do one

you might want to ask over the otherside as there are more pros lurking there, and I recall a number of door threads

Wise words

Cheers

 

[big soft moose]

£1950. this would include using a moulding cutter you have already.

What did you quote?

Quoted 1100 euros + 19.6 vat which is a fair price...

Maybe I should move onto the next job?

921.35 in sterling (acording to currency converter website) sounds more than fair to me - some potential clients just dont have a realistic idea of what stuff costs ( I remember a guy who wanted a dirty great willow taken down which was right next to a house and a major road who wasnt happy with my quote of 600 notes - which i thought was very reasonable - and I told him to shove it - he wound up paying my freind Maz closer to 900)

unless you are desperate for the work I'd be inclined to walk on by.

 

[eoinsgaff]

I find the following a very good price negotiation tactic. It will work in reverse as well. I'll try to explain.

Situation 1, You are aware your price may be on the high side.
Offer the price, say €10,000. Customer complains so you explain that it includes some particularly fancy components (hardwood, hardware etc) and if they wish for the price to drop, you can change these. Adjust to €8000 for cheaper components. Ball in customers court and without fail, a genuine one will slowly work their way back to €10,000.

Situation 2, You are aware your price is on the low side.
Offer the price, say €100. Once the customer is hooked, offer the various improvements available (again hardwood, hardware etc) to move the price up.

This may all be rather obvious but I find the awareness of both scenarios can be very useful when approaching a particular situation.

I hope this makes sense.

 

[eoinsgaff]

Also...

I've some experience pricing civil engineering projects and the best tool one can have is Excel. However, it should not only be used to price projects, but also to record their execution. This can't be emphasized enough. This allows one to assess their pricing method and very quickly refine their approach.

An organized filing system goes a long way as well.

 

[big soft moose]

I find the following a very good price negotiation tactic. It will work in reverse as well. I'll try to explain.

Situation 1, You are aware your price may be on the high side.
Offer the price, say €10,000. Customer complains so you explain that it includes some particularly fancy components (hardwood, hardware etc) and if they wish for the price to drop, you can change these. Adjust to €8000 for cheaper components. Ball in customers court and without fail, a genuine one will slowly work their way back to €10,000.

Situation 2, You are aware your price is on the low side.
Offer the price, say €100. Once the customer is hooked, offer the various improvements available (again hardwood, hardware etc) to move the price up.

This may all be rather obvious but I find the awareness of both scenarios can be very useful when approaching a particular situation.

I hope this makes sense.

good points but there is also

scenario three, you are aware that your price is cut to the bone, any lower and you wouldnt be making money, the customer rejects it as to high because hes an *****, he goes to ikea instead, and you go to the pub for a well deserved pint

 

[Lons]

921.35 in sterling (acording to currency converter website) sounds more than fair to me - some potential clients just dont have a realistic idea of what stuff costs ( I remember a guy who wanted a dirty great willow taken down which was right next to a house and a major road who wasnt happy with my quote of 600 notes - which i thought was very reasonable - and I told him to shove it - he wound up paying my freind Maz closer to 900)

unless you are desperate for the work I'd be inclined to walk on by._________________

I'm with the moose on that one except I think you've under priced for the work involved.

Take off the materials and you're working for £135 a day before overheads, taxes etc. You should be making a profit, however small on the materials. What if some of the timber is crap? what if you break some cutters?

It's much easier to come down in price than push your rates up and the worst thing a business can do IMO is undersell itself and gain a reputation for cheap work.

It will be bespoke, unique and quality work and as such deserves a decent return - I wouldn't hesitate to tell him to go forth etc. (In a nice way as chances are he just wants a RR for the price of a Mini and he'll come back with his tail between his legs.)

Bob

 

[Russ]

Thanks for all the feedback, some very interesting points..

The problem is, and I'm sure we've all fallen for it, theres plenty of work going on as he needs a library and some dressing rooms etc. so he's trying to start the ball rolling by questioning my prices, even if I tendered a lower or higher price I'm sure he would've given the same response..

Think I'll take the honest transparent approach and show him the breakdown in full, this usually works, either that or recommend that we both pop down to the local diy store and buy some cheap doors that I could fit, but I know it's not his style.

Russ

 

[jeffinfrance]

i'm in france russ, 1100 ht is way too low.

there's 2 weeks work there, for the frame and install as well, probably a bit of making good and finishing. be very clear here about what is included, espescially allowances for fitting as any problems can suck up the time.

rates according to the chambre de metiers are 237 euros ht per day. i charge 200, which for french clients is no problem. brits always want a cheaper deal.

dont forget tva is only 5.5% if the house is over 2 years old.

all the best,

jeff

 

[ramp34]

Whats the standard hourly rate/ day rate nowadays, ive seen gardeners charging £15 an hour just to cut grass!!!

 

[big soft moose]

Whats the standard hourly rate/ day rate nowadays, ive seen gardeners charging £15 an hour just to cut grass!!!

when i do gardening/landscaping my base rate is £200 pd which equates to £25ph (tree surgery costs a lot more) so I cant see a problem with £15ph to cut grass - especially as its got to cover depreciation on the mower, fuel, transport to site etc