How to make the lid/top and not screw up mitres

[fleyh]

I was making a box from spalted beech, got distracted, and glued up the walls too early without thinking of how I am going to attach the top.

It is a tissue box holder and, due to the way it is going to be used, the top must either be fixed completely in place (not detachable) or sit inside the box well enough so the box can be carried around when the user puts their hand through the tissue dispensing hole in the top of the box to lift it.

The top has to be level/flush with the top of the walls (sit inside the walls), i.e., no end grain visible. I can't saw it back into parts because the end size (when re-cut and re-assembled) will be too small for my requirement, and I do not have any more material for a second try.

Question:
What method of fixing the top (lid which does not easily open) could I use in this instance?
If I simply cut the lid to the size of the internal space and glue it in, wood movement will likely ruin my mitres.
- The long walls are 13mm thick and the short walls are 8mm.

 

[Inspector]

If it were my mistake I would cut a rebate around the edge of the sides so the top can sit flush and glue it. You would see half the thickness of the sides. Better to take wood movement into consideration would be to raise the edges of the top panel and hold it into the rebate with quarter round moldings you make, mitred corners. You can glue the molding to the sides or install with brads in the same way glass used to be fitted to doors in furniture.

Pete

 

[fleyh]

If it were my mistake I would cut a rebate around the edge of the sides so the top can sit flush and glue it. You would see half the thickness of the sides.

Indeed. Visually this would work great, but (unless I am misunderstanding) the wood movement would still be an issue.

Better to take wood movement into consideration would be to raise the edges of the top panel and hold it into the rebate with quarter round moldings you make, mitred corners. You can glue the molding to the sides or install with brads in the same way glass used to be fitted to doors in furniture.

Thank you for the suggestion Pete.

The way I understood your explanation, the top of the box will not be one horizontal surface because the moulding perimeter would be higher than the main body of the lid. Did I get it right?

My end user is very particular - the whole top surface must be flush, with no dips where dust can collect in large volumes.
Looking for a smooth top like this (another box I made), but without visible end grain.

The idea (before I glued it up prematurely) was to sink the "lid" between the walls this time and make it similar to a floating door panel. There would be a millimetre or so expansion gap between the lid and walls.

 

[Inspector]

My suggestion would not produce a flat top. The centre of the panel would be but the edge, having been planed to routed thinner would dip to allow the molding to sit and fasten to the sides. It would look like a raised panel door etc.

Pete

 

[fleyh]

My suggestion would not produce a flat top. The centre of the panel would be but the edge, having been planed to routed thinner would dip to allow the molding to sit and fasten to the sides. It would look like a raised panel door etc.

Pete

Thank you for the clarification.
I will keep this option in mind.

My current idea is to resaw the top to a 5mm thickness and glue it in on the sides only, hoping that a panel this thin will not be able to overcome the thicker sides. We are almost in summertime, so the expansion of a 5mm thick panel should not be significant before it begins contracting again.

Another idea is to resaw the top to veneer thickness and glue it to a thin(ish) plywood backer to give it strength. My concerns here are my potential inability to glue the veneer properly and ensuring that the plywood is not visibly obvious from the outside through the tissue hole.

 

[Cabinetman]

I think I would gently break the corner joints, presuming they are just mitres, put it in the vice so that the vice is touching two opposite corners and squeeze. Any glue can be planed off, I don’t imagine making the box a few shavings smaller will matter?
Ian

 

[RonnieI]

How about redesigning the top? Make four identical triangular pieces, glue together on the edge to form a flat sheet and there'll be no endgrain showing?

 

[MichaelChou]

Are you able to resaw a veneer of the top and glue that to something stable?

 

[fleyh]

Are you able to resaw a veneer of the top and glue that to something stable?

Indeed. That was one of my potential ideas in post #5

 

[fleyh]

How about redesigning the top? Make four identical triangular pieces, glue together on the edge to form a flat sheet and there'll be no endgrain showing?

This sounds brilliant. I am going to use this idea on my next box.

For this particular one - I do not have enough material left to make 4 triangles.
The box is rectangular. So I could cut two longer triangles from my existing lid panel, but won't be able to make two shorter ones.

 

[fleyh]

Random thought, have you fixed the bottom yet, if not you could not fix the top from within, with little buttons or brackets..and make the bottom detachable for refilling, I've made a few boxes using this principal, but they've only ever been filled once.

The bottom is not fixed. As you say, it has to be detachable for refilling.

Do you happen to have any examples of what such fixings look like from the inside?

I did consider using some sort of metal angle brackets for attaching the top, but I do not have anything suitable to hand, so I parked that idea for the moment.

I've made a few boxes using this principal, but they've only ever been filled once.

LOL.
My users are more appreciative and keep refilling my tissue boxes over and over.
One box has even been taken to live overseas.

One wish I am trying to fulfil with this current box is that it should accommodate a specific tissue brand, including the cardboard box they come in, i.e., no need to take tissues out of the shop-bought carton when reloading.

 

[RonnieI]

This sounds brilliant. I am going to use this idea on my next box.

For this particular one - I do not have enough material left to make 4 triangles.
The box is rectangular. So I could cut two longer triangles from my existing lid panel, but won't be able to make two shorter ones.

How about the two longer sided triangles out of the existing top and the other two pieces in a contrasting wood? Like a quarter panelled door.

 

[Cabinetman]

The ones I have made of this design would be difficult to reuse as they and their contents are usually buried.

You can’t leave it there! What why and how please!

 

[Cabinetman]

Poor picture of the last one I made:

View attachment 182195

This one had my Dad in it!

So sorry, I should have thought before saying something.
I lost my Dad, it’s a blow when it happens.

 

[fleyh]

How about the two longer sided triangles out of the existing top and the other two pieces in a contrasting wood? Like a quarter panelled door.

Another great idea which I am going to file for future use.
My current box is made from spalted beech. I am going to struggle to find something suitable from another wood species.

 

[RonnieI]

Another great idea which I am going to file for future use.
My current box is made from spalted beech. I am going to struggle to find something suitable from another wood species.

Something completely contrasting? Mahogany, walnut, wenge or similar? Could look pretty cool.

 

[HamsterJam]

The bottom is not fixed. As you say, it has to be detachable for refilling.

Do you happen to have any examples of what such fixings look like from the inside?

I did consider using some sort of metal angle brackets for attaching the top, but I do not have anything suitable to hand, so I parked that idea for the moment.

I was thinking along similar lines to HOJ…

Can you router slots in the internal face of the sides to accept a thin fillet of wood and glue the lid to those so it sits flush externally? (Think biscuits but rectangular.)
If you can’t afford the small loss of internal depth, the lid could be rebated so the fillets sit flush on the inside.
You will need a biscuit cutter or similar.
Another variation is to simply glue strips of wood inside for the lid to sit on.

 

[fleyh]

If you can’t afford the small loss of internal depth, the lid could be rebated so the fillets sit flush on the inside.

Another variation is to simply glue strips of wood inside for the lid to sit on.

Both options sound very possible, but I am not sure I understand them 100% as I can't see how this will allow for wood movement because I would have to glue the top to the fillets/strips, wouldn't I?

 

[Distinterior]

With all due respect Fleyh, your Spalted Beech doesn't appear to be particularly "Spalty", so I may be able to help you out.
I have a couple of offcuts of Spalted beech from a couple of previous projects. The reason I never used them was that the wood didnt have the black Spalting so extensively as the other bits I used. My offcuts may well match up well with your original wood.

What are the approximate dimensions of the Beech you may be looking for to complete/ remake the lid...?
I can take a couple of pictures of my offcuts so you can judge for yourself if they would be suitable...?

Regards, Tim.

 

[fleyh]

With all due respect Fleyh, your Spalted Beech doesn't appear to be particularly "Spalty",

LOL. No argument here, I have seen better myself, but I like working with what I have rather than what I could have.

so I may be able to help you out.
I have a couple of offcuts of Spalted beech from a couple of previous projects. The reason I never used them was that the wood didnt have the black Spalting so extensively as the other bits I used. My offcuts may well match up well with your original wood.

What are the approximate dimensions of the Beech you may be looking for to complete/ remake the lid...?
I can take a couple of pictures of my offcuts so you can judge for yourself if they would be suitable...?

Regards, Tim.

Thank you very much for your kind offer Tim.

To clarify, I am not looking to remake the lid but rather collecting options on how I can permanently embed the top (and account for wood movement) in the walls I accidentally glued up.
My original idea was to embed the top as a floating panel (grooves in the sides), with a rebate on the bottom of the lid to float in the grooves such that the top of the lid is flush with the sides. This is similar to how a raised panel door is constructed but no moulding, with minimal (1mm) gaps around the lid perimeter for wood expansion.

The reason I might want to remake the lid is to use @RonnieI 's triangles idea, which allows hiding the end grain. I like it a lot and will definitely employ it in the future, but for this particular project, I do not have enough ready to use material to reconstruct the top from triangles.

I am one of those weird hobbyist woodworkers who has never purchased project timber and have always sourced my material from local woodland areas. I also like the fact that for almost everything I make, I can tell where approximately in the local area the tree originally grew.