How can I order wood which won't warp?

[Phil Pascoe]

I used to live in Surrey, Champions and Alsfords will always be a safer bet than B&Q etc.
IMO

Anywhere else will be a safer bet than B&Q etc.

 

[ChrisWiduWood]

Get engineered wood.

Good shout,

Here is what Adam is talking about machined-panels , no brainer.
Will need edging or framing as others suggested to cover the laminations

 

[mrodent]

Good shout,

Here is what Adam is talking about machined-panels , no brainer.
Will need edging or framing as others suggested to cover the laminations

Thanks, that stuff looks very attractive. I mean, nicer than ply in particular.

I'm obviously free to Google this question, and will, but what's the difference between high-quality ply (e.g. birch) and engineered wood of this kind?

 

[Peter Sefton]

I put together this video a few years ago to help wood workers select their timber.

https://woodworkersworkshop.co.uk/peter-sefton-timber-selection-download/


Cheers

Peter

 

[flh801978]

MRodent
There’s nothing difficult about using solid hardwoods to make a bookcase
If you want to buy ready machined boards cut to your exact size ready for you to joint together to a finished bookcase you are going to have to pay a premium price
The boards that i mentioned at B&Q were very nice oak straight and ready to use..i was impressed …I hadn’t realised that B&q did oak boards…but they were expensive.
The boards that i bought and pictured on page 1 cost £340
There was lots of material there
You could buy a thicknesser for £250 ish use it to convert your rough sawn timber then sell it for not much of a loss.
If you are only wanting to do the one job

This is the bookcase i made its 900mm wide 1200 high and 300 deep

Ian

 

[mrodent]

MRodent
There’s nothing difficult about using solid hardwoods to make a bookcase
If you want to buy ready machined boards cut to your exact size ready for you to joint together to a finished bookcase you are going to have to pay a premium price
The boards that i mentioned at B&Q were very nice oak straight and ready to use..i was impressed …I hadn’t realised that B&q did oak boards…but they were expensive.
The boards that i bought and pictured on page 1 cost £340
There was lots of material there
You could buy a thicknesser for £250 ish use it to convert your rough sawn timber then sell it for not much of a loss.
If you are only wanting to do the one job

This is the bookcase i made its 900mm wide 1200 high and 300 deep

Ian

Thanks. Pretty amazing book case, but also the suggestion makes me think.

The suggestion appeals to me because that way I could of course allow the rough sawn timber to acclimatise for as long as I wanted, months possibly, before doing this machining/planing/jointering or whatever it's called.

When I look at the innumerable solid wooden objects, fixtures, fittings and furniture, in my house it's clear that they are not splitting or bowing or whatever, so (as an amateur) I conclude that, for most practical purposes, it appears that solid wood does in fact apparently settle down, for a given setting/atmospheric conditions (although apparently able to adjust fine to the passing seasons), with stability. The problem seems to be one of time (or patience), above all, before you actually machine the wood to size in order to start building something.

In a previous post I referred to these jointer/thicknesser machines as "terrifying". More than the cost this is what concerns me. Actually just now, out of the blue, a guy in South London from this site sent me a message saying that I might be able to use his jointer. Which is amazingly generous. Slight problem is that I don't actually own a vehicle (and live miles from him). But, whether buying my own or transporting this rough sawn wood to his workshop, maybe this is the answer!

But I have another question about thicknessers: this machine delivers constant thickness. But isn't it the case that before using a thicknesser you need to flatten your wood board using a jointer (i.e. in particular if the board has a bow lengthways, which in most cases rough sawn timber which has acclimatised probably will)? Do you also have a jointer?

What's your experience been of using a thicknesser and a jointer (if applicable)?

 

[flh801978]

I have a large cast iron planer thicknesser in my workshop however because of space resistrictions it difficult for me to use on large long boards.so i bought a metabo lunchbox style thicknesser which i can set up outside and thickness long boards easily.
So for my bookcase project it was… cut up my rough sawn boards the day after collecting them from a barn type warehouse..they were said to be kiln dryed
Cut the boards roughly to size width wise and left 100mm over length
Pass through the thicknessor until clean
Hand plane the edges square or with jointer
Make the bookcase with domino’s or other techniques
Finish with osmo oil
It hasn’t moved that i can see.
The back actually is solid oak flooring boards (from B&q) 15mm thick …you can't really see the back when the case is populated.
Total project time 3 days from rough sawn boards to finished case

 

[Adam W.]

Good shout,

Here is what Adam is talking about machined-panels , no brainer.
Will need edging or framing as others suggested to cover the laminations

LOL!

I thought I might be suffering from @Inspector invisibility syndrome.

 

[mrodent]

I have a large cast iron planer thicknesser in my workshop however because of space resistrictions it difficult for me to use on large long boards.so i bought a metabo lunchbox style thicknesser which i can set up outside and plane long boards easily.
So for my bookcase project it was… cut up my rough sawn boards the day after collecting them from a barn type warehouse..they were said to be kiln dryed
Cut the boards roughly to size width wise and left 100mm over length
Pass through the thicknessor until clean
Make the bookcase with domino’s
Finish with osmo oil
It hasn’t moved that i can see.
The back actually is solid oak flooring boards (from B&q) 15mm thick …you can really see the back when the case is populated.
Total project time 3 days from rough sawn boards to finished case

Thanks... this overlapped with my last edit.

So no need for a long period of acclimatising?

When you say "planer thicknesser", is this a machine that incorporates a "jointer", i.e. to deliver a board at least one side of which has no lengthways or side-to-side bowing, and is completely totally and utterly flat along its entire length?

 

[flh801978]

A planer/thicknesser is 2 machines in one
on top is a planer which will plane 2 edges square to each other
the thicknesser which is below the knifes will thickness the material.

a stand alone thicknessor will make your material the same thickness....but it may not be flat along its length.

but for building a bookcase it will be fine

 

[mrodent]

LOL!

I thought I might be suffering from @Inspector invisibility syndrome.

It looks like nice stuff. From what I've googled, plywood is said to be a "type of engineered wood".

But some of the things on offer at the link to sr-timber.co.uk seem like they might be better than general ply...

Maybe you might say what types of engineered woods would be good (e.g. for a bookshelves unit) and in what way it differs from general ply (e.g. birch ply)?

 

[Adam W.]

I'll leave that for someone else to explain, as I'm off out.

But,

I think you need to re-think your ideas about the material called wood. It doesn't and will not ever have the working characteristics or dimensional stability of plastic.

It comes from a plant, a tree plant to avoid any confusion, which is subject to the variations of climate and growing conditions. Boards from it, even though they may look flat when fresh sawn or in the shop, can and frequently do twist cup and bow. This depends on many things including; how the tree is sawn up, if it has twisted in a spiral when it was growing or if it grew on a slope, and for the sake of pedants everywhere, other things of course.

I hope you enjoy learning about carpentry and joinery as it's an enjoyable habit, especially when you make stuff to use for yourself.

 

[mrodent]

I'll leave that for someone else to explain, as I'm off out.

But,

I think you need to re-think your ideas about the material called wood. It doesn't and will not ever have the working characteristics or dimensional stability of plastic.

It comes from a plant, a tree plant to avoid any confusion, which is subject to the variations of climate and growing conditions. Boards from it, even though they may look flat when fresh sawn or in the shop, can and frequently do twist cup and bow. This depends on many things including; how the tree is sawn up, if it has twisted in a spiral when it was growing or if it grew on a slope, and for the sake of pedants everywhere, other things of course.

Yes, I'd say I knew that even before I bought my troublesome parana pine years ago, as described. I just want an end result that looks and acts pretty much like the many solid wooden or (engineered wood) objects in my house.

For 000s of years human beings have made things using solid wood and often these objects don't necessarily seem to twist, warp, bow, split or fall apart, even after 00s of years. It appears that in the UK in 2023, given the reality of what wood yards are selling, that building a bookshelves unit in solid wood is, or may be, fraught with difficulties. Hence one possible option of using engineered wood, whether ply or something else.

 

[Astrobits]

I don't know where you are in London but you could try to locate a "Men's Shed" near you. There you will find friendly and experienced people to help you and possibly machinery that you could be trained on for your projects.
Nigel

 

[Adam W.]

Yes, I'd say I knew that even before I bought my troublesome parana pine years ago, as described. I just want an end result that looks and acts pretty much like the many solid wooden or (engineered wood) objects in my house.

For 000s of years human beings have made things using solid wood and often these objects don't necessarily seem to twist, warp, bow, split or fall apart, even after 00s of years. It appears that in the UK in 2023, given the reality of what wood yards are selling, that building a bookshelves unit in solid wood is, or may be, fraught with difficulties. Hence one possible option of using engineered wood, whether ply or something else.

Alright then.

Ply is made from built up layers of rotary cut veneer, mostly cheap stuff with good stuff on the outsides, engineered wood is made of strips of solid wood glued together, like in a solid oak kitchen worktop.

If you want solid wood which isn't made of strips, but doesn't move, twist or shrink very much, you need to get riven wood, which is split from very high quality trees, but you'll have to do that yourself. Quatersawn wood is the next best option, but it can still be cut from trees which are spiral grown and may twist and still bow, but it won't cup.

Riven wood is what they used from the stoneage right up until the 17-18th century and some people still use it today to make stuff like chairs from.

The Romans had saws and the Swedish apparently had water powered sawmills in the 15th century, so sawn wood was still quite early in some places.

The trouble with todays merchant timber is that it is grown too fast and cut too early.

 

[mrodent]

Alright then.

Ply is made from built up layers of rotary cut veneer, mostly cheap stuff with good stuff on the outsides, engineered wood is made of strips of solid wood glued together, like in a solid oak kitchen worktop.

If you want solid wood which isn't made of strips, but doesn't move, twist or shrink very much, you need to get riven wood, which is split from very high quality trees, but you'll have to do that yourself. Quatersawn wood is the next best option, but it can still be cut from trees which are spiral grown and may twist and still bow, but it won't cup.

Thanks. A couple of previous posts in this thread covered this business of quartersawn and other cuts (this one, for example).

I'll do a bit of research next week into this kind of engineered board (e.g. prices). This does sound like it could be a very good option, particularly if the choice is not to paint the bookcase but treat the wood in some way (showing grain). I'm not clear whether the surface (i.e. the top veneer) always looks like one-piece wood: sometimes with these sorts of kitchen worktops, for example, you can see clearly they are made from blocks. Will research it.

If painting, it seems like it might be overkill, and I suppose birch ply with a solid "facing front" would presumably be cheaper.

 

[Mikebart]

Six inch nail will stop a lot of twisting

 

[Inspector]

mrodent just so you don't get spanked by a stickler for terminology.

Your part of the world calls a machine that you hand feed the wood over the top to flatten and straighten a planer, on this side of the pond it is called a jointer and down under they call them buzzers.

You guys and the Aussies call the machine that pulls the board through to make the board the same thickness a thicknesser and we call it a planer.

As already stated wood moves and the amount and way it moves depends on the species, old growth or new, how the log was cut into boards etc. As you become more experienced you will become better at spotting which boards will behave and which will not. Reading the grain. It is always ready to move when conditions change enough. I'm sitting on an oak chair, nothing special, that was old when my father re-glued it 30 or 40 years ago and gave it to me. It was solid as a rock while I lived on the West Coast but when we moved here 8 years ago it acclimated to the drier clime were are in. Many of the joints are loose and the seat split along a glue line front to back. So if you get wood from a supplier and they claim it is dry from whatever method it will change to match your surroundings and keep changing as the environment around it changes. The effects of the drying is mitigated by using good construction practices and applying the same number of finishing coats on all surfaces.

In time as you do more you will learn more and get better at using solid wood. I suggest doing the unpopular and read as much as you can from books and magazines from 20 years ago and earlier. They are a gold mine if information. I suspect that because you are younger you will be more inclined to watch youboob. Problem with it is that a great deal of the presenters are not able to give enough information in a few minutes and it isn't mentioned or they themselves don't know. Also many of the presenters are just looking for viewers so they get more sponsorship and money. Be careful following the instructions of North American made videos and many practices are questionable at best and often dangerous. A forum like this is good because there are lifetimes of experience to get help from.

For now the suggestions of using engineered woods, sheet goods and the like are a good way to get going and build experience. For what it is worth I have 3 sheets of lumber core plywood (Philippine mahogany boards with thin plywood on both sides much like the stuff Adam mentioned) made in the 80's or earlier standing on edge in my shop and it is still as flat as when it was made.

Good luck in your journey and have fun.

Pete

 

[sometimewoodworker]

Yes, I'd say I knew that even before I bought my troublesome parana pine years ago, as described. I just want an end result that looks and acts pretty much like the many solid wooden or (engineered wood) objects in my house.

For 000s of years human beings have made things using solid wood and often these objects don't necessarily seem to twist, warp, bow, split or fall apart, even after 00s of years. It appears that in the UK in 2023, given the reality of what wood yards are selling, that building a bookshelves unit in solid wood is, or may be, fraught with difficulties. Hence one possible option of using engineered wood, whether ply or something else.

If you want wood that is unlikely to move then use engineered wood, it can be less or vastly more expensive than unengineered wood.

the point you are missing about the pieces of furniture that are decades or centuries old that don’t twist, warp, bow, split or fall apart, is that they are selected from the many that did twist, warp, bow, split or fall apart, and ended up as firewood or repurposed into something else.

You have an unrealistic expectation of the wood that is being sold. The wood yards today supply better quality than ever before, the problem is that you have to know how wood will move and select material that is going to reduce that movement. So it is not the wood yards fault if you buy on price and get flat sawn wood from a species that is going to pretzel! Once again all wood moves some more than others and get the wrong slice of the log and you can virtually guarantee your board is going to make a banana look flat.

 

[Lefley]

Thanks... an earlier post in fact suggested B&Q oak boards... but in fact the site says this about all these boards: "Treatment is required to prevent warping and bowing, if left untreated timber will silver with age and move to create a different character". What's your experience been with these B&Q boards?

That question of treating wood to help reduce warping has also been discussed earlier in this thread.

Also, in the post before yours John Brown says he reckons a dedicated wood supplier, like Champions, will probably be better. At the moment I'm inclining towards 12 mm birch ply with a "front facing" made of some solid wood. There's a Champions local to me.

Provisionally I've got the impression that the ideal of solid wood bookcases is somewhat problematic in 2023! I may also try making a small one in solid and see how viable/practical that is.

The reason being is google old growth trees that we used years ago. And the spindles we use now. Old growth fir was hard to hammer a nail through. There is hardly any available anymore unless they tear down an old building and mill up the beams. And then new growth fir . You can break a 1x2 over your knee. Try that with an old growth board and you would be at the hospital. The new wood has much wider growth rings allowing for more rapid moisture absorption. I would guess.
picture of old growth vs secondary new growth wood. Same tree.