High or Low: A beginner's conundrum...and other questions...

[ED65]

By the way, if I did go the path of getting an old plane of Ebay what should I look for? Is it a question of hit and miss?

Although of course it's done all the time I would prefer not to buy from pictures. But some things to look out for would include cracks in the casting, excessive rust (lots of rust is not a dealbreaker by any means, but the heavier it is the more it can hide issues), missing or replacement/swapped parts, cracks or chips missing from the wooden handles. Cracked handles, including the horizontal splits across the rear handle which are not common unfortunately, as bad as that seems are generally fixable and the repair can be done so it's perfectly seamless (and sometimes invisible).

Some also add to their rule-out list plastic handles, but I think that's short-sighted; while they work as handles just fine cheap plastic is a bit naff, however the resin handles that Stanley used for a period are often lumped into the same category but they are in a different class altogether.

If you can't visit some car boots to hunt for tools on the cheap I always recommend somewhere like Gumtree. Although you'll be waiting longer to find a plane in your area this is offset by having the opportunity to look it over in the flesh before you hand over your money, which can be invaluable. And the prices are usually lower than eBay.

Would something like this be any good? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fully-Restor ... Swx4xa1MZ0

That looks to be in stonking condition. I doubt it will sell for the current price! And of course you pay P&P on top of whatever it ends up selling at.

Also, as with all tools with some collector value, users should be wary of paying a premium for the box which adds nothing of value as far as we're concerned.

 

[Silly_Billy]

I decided to enquire into doing a beginner bricklaying course not long ago.Just so that I could get enough knowledge to build a simple brick garden wall. I very quickly gave up on the idea as soon a I was able to recover from the shock I got when I was quoted £4k for the pleasure :shock: :shock: . So if woodworking classes or courses cost that sort of amount (which I suspect they might do) then I have no intention of getting shocked twice.

Thankfully, woodwork courses don't cost anything like that! E.g. down South, there's David C and John Lloyd. The latter offers a Fundamentals weekend course that costs £250.

I don't know the nearest places to Cheshire, but Chris Tribe is in Yorkshire. Plus there's a list here showing numerous courses and events. Also, the news section of Good Woodworking magazine includes a course listing for the month ahead.

 

[Jacob]

Record 5 1/2 SS just went for £36 on ebay. Bargain. Ditto the fully restored one referred to by Chlad above.
In the real world you can still buy a top notch planes like these for a TENTH of the price of a fashionable but over-weight retro LV copy. Less than the price of a replacement blade even.

 

[PAC1]

Whether a LN is worth the money comes down to whether you want to spend time tuning a plane or spend money to reduce the amount of tuning. As you have seen you can get a good second hand plane for a fraction of the price of a LN . You run a risk with what you buy and then have to tune it up and maybe buy a replacement blade. A LN is guaranteed and will be ready to work in half an hour. Is a LN a good plane Yes. Can you tune a Stanley or Record to perform as well as any bailey pattern plane Yes.
No doubt folks will argue even with this analysis as some simply do not like new or up market manufacturer’s and think that because in their mind it is a waste of money they have a duty to pursuade everyone else. But as was said earlier it is your money spend it on your priorities. I still say you need to learn to plane first

 

[Chlad]

That looks to be in stonking condition. I doubt it will sell for the current price! And of course you pay P&P on top of whatever it ends up selling at.

Looks like it was my lucky day. :mrgreen: Bowed to the collective wisdom here and I think this plane should keep me busy for a long while. Thank you very much fo rthe guidance given until now and for the guidance you will very likely give me in the future helping me learn the way of the plane :mrgreen:

 

[richarddownunder]

Good for you. Hope it turns out well!

 

[Phil Pascoe]

If you are unsure of anything this is worth a watch -
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... estoration

 

[ED65]

That was a stroke of luck, nice one!

From the pics it looks like a quick hone of the iron may be all that's required for this to be ready to go to work, although a little fettling of the leading edge of the cap iron might be required too. Many would want to do something with the finish on the handles too but that's optional obvs.

 

[Racers]

Once you add in the cost of your time cleaning sharpening and adjusting a second-hand plane you are up to the price of a LN/LV, I do enjoy the process but if you are a full time woodworker rather than a hobbyist then it doesn't make sense.

Pete

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Only if you earn £100 an hour. :lol:

 

[Jacob]

The price difference is over £300. It should take half an hour to get a typical plane sorted and anyway for a professional it's good practice to get to grips with how things work and sometimes make mistakes in the process.
OK amateurs can't be bothered and if they are fairly well off the LV/LN out of the box option is attractive, but bloody expensive! If they use them at all (many don't!) they are going to have to learn about the planes too, as they don't stay in just outa da box condition for long.

 

[ED65]

A LN is guaranteed and will be ready to work in half an hour.

Half an hour? Unless I was changing a straight edge to a cambered edge I'd want to be taking shavings after a quick hone, maybe even straight from the box.

Once you add in the cost of your time cleaning sharpening and adjusting a second-hand plane you are up to the price of a LN/LV, I do enjoy the process but if you are a full time woodworker rather than a hobbyist then it doesn't make sense.

I've never been confident the sums have to be done that way. Without cheating the books the tool cleanup could be done on the pro's own time, same as it is for a leisure woodworker who has a different daytime job. But even if it were done during workshop hours who charges their time at nearly £200 an hour?

 

[Jacob]

...... You run a risk with what you buy and then have to tune it up and maybe buy a replacement blade. ......

"Tuning up" is a very exaggerated term for a simple process which is just part of routine maintenance, which everybody who uses these tools need to know how to do.
Best way to learn is with an old plane - if you get it wrong it hasn't cost a lot and you can try again, if you get it right you have learned something very valuable and now have a useful tool.
NB I've never needed to buy a replacement blade in my life, though I have experimented with replacement alternatives , to find out if they are as good as they are said to be. They aren't. Even in some utterly crap planes the blades have been the best thing about them. Duds are unknown as far as I'm concerned.

PS the very worst blades may need the "without a ruler trick" to apply a little bevel on the face side. It's the same as the "ruler trick" but much easier without the ruler.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

On woodworking courses for beginners in Cheshire, this might be worth looking at;

http://cheshirewoodworking.co.uk/cheshi ... g-courses/

On 'fettling' secondhand planes - don't take too much notice of the old f-- , er, hands who've fettled dozens of planes when they say it can be done in twenty seconds. They can - they've done loads, so know how without thinking. If you're new to it, take your time - take it to bits, examine it carefully, see how the bits fit together, give it all a good clean. Put it back together. Sharpen the iron (that's another learning curve), try it out. Fiddle about and find out. Hit problems. Do some research. Try again, and get a bit further. Gradually, things will come together and you'll be planing wood, but it won't be instant. Might take hours, or days, or weeks - but it's time well spent, in the end.

Enjoy it, though. It's all learning, and steps towards the goal of making stuff from wood.

Edit to add - as suggested earlier in the thread, buy a copy of Robert Wearing's 'The Essential Woodworker'. It's about the best concise guide to the basics I've ever found.

 

[Racers]

Strip clean/repaint/polish, lap the frog to the bed, sharpen the blade, sort the cap iron, lap the sole flat, strip, stain and wax the tote and knob.
A mornings work at least, more if you are waiting for the paint to dry :wink:

Pete

 

[Phil Pascoe]

And justified, if you're attempting to sell it to a museum - but most people only do (and need to do) the work that's necessary to make them fit for use.

 

[PAC1]

...... You run a risk with what you buy and then have to tune it up and maybe buy a replacement blade. ......

"Tuning up" is a very exaggerated term for a simple process which is just part of routine maintenance, which everybody who uses these tools need to know how to do.
Best way to learn is with an old plane - if you get it wrong it hasn't cost a lot and you can try again, if you get it right you have learned something very valuable and now have a useful tool.
NB I've never needed to buy a replacement blade in my life, though I have experimented with replacement alternatives , to find out if they are as good as they are said to be. They aren't. Even in some utterly rubbish planes the blades have been the best thing about them. Duds are unknown as far as I'm concerned.

PS the very worst blades may need the "without a ruler trick" to apply a little bevel on the face side. It's the same as the "ruler trick" but much easier without the ruler.

Jacob only you could have an argument with what I did not say rather than what I did
"Tune up" is only exaggerated if you imply something into the phrase
"Maybe" becomes "needed". The vast majority of old blades are good or better hence I said "maybe"
You are lucky never needing to replace a blade I had a 1990's Stanley No 7 where the blade was hopeless it was soft and twisted. That was one out of many.

 

[Jacob]

Strip clean/repaint/polish, lap the frog to the bed, sharpen the blade, sort the cap iron, lap the sole flat, strip, stain and wax the tote and knob.
A mornings work at least, more if you are waiting for the paint to dry :wink:

Pete

You don't need to do one tenth of that unless you are really unlucky.
Paint, strip, stain and wax the tote and knob - what on earth for? A wipe with an oily rag would be more use and a lot easier.
I'd sharpen first, scrape rust from the sole if necessary, squiggle of candle wax, then try it out. Only then do problems show, if any. You may get away with just 10 minutes work.
Avoid lapping/flattening anything - it's a weird modern sharpeners obsession. There are some terrible tales on here of people setting about lapping even brand new tools and wrecking them in the process. Don't do it!
Defective blades - if it doesn't keep an edge it's very likely to have been over-heated on a grindstone - everybody does this at one time or another, I know I have. Luckily this is always very local, within a few mm of the edge, so a few sharpenings should remove it and get you into good steel. You need the practice! And grind very carefully!

 

[MikeG.]

You're both right, of course, but talking about different tools, and different owners. But this is the internet, where the extreme position is always the one argued. If you were standing next to each other in a workshop with a pair of rusty old planes to sort out, you'd be talking about the weather within 2 minutes, and Jacob would be making a pot of tea for Pete as he put the finishing touches to his tool. They'd both work beautifully, but Pete's would look a little prettier than Jacobs. That's all. Well, other than that I'd pop by, tell them that they don't need any extra planes anyway, and ask them to show me what projects they were working on.

 

[novocaine]

well this is as fun as ever.
Chlad, where are you in Cheshire, you are welcome to come and try my no. 4, 4 1/2, 5 BD planes and small cheap BU block plane, I'll even sharpen them before you come. :O