Help with Tooling advice for Kitchen project.

[Anonymous]

Thanks yet again for the input.

Being a 'newbie' to woodworking there are quite a few comments that have raised some questions and food for thought.

I am even more intrigued by the information I was given, and particularly as the person I spoke to seemed quite a genuine sort of person. I will certainly have some questions for him if he ever does come back to me with more information.
I may even pop in to the shop and ask them if they know how to contact him as they seemed to know him.

I will post any other information as I manage to get it.

 

[Scrit]

I am even more intrigued by the information I was given, and particularly as the person I spoke to seemed quite a genuine sort of person. I will certainly have some questions for him if he ever does come back to me with more information.

I may even pop in to the shop and ask them if they know how to contact him as they seemed to know him.

OK, here goes - with glued, dowelled construction I can assemble a carcass in 6 to 8 minutes, including mounting the feet and RF-ing (radio-frequency glue curing) the joints and I feel that's comparable to the best you can achieve with carcass screws or pocket holes, biscuits, etc, however there's assembed and assembled...... What I call assembled calls for the hinge plates and drawer runners to be drilled for and hardware hung on the carcasses or for drawer units the drawers to be made-up (which can take 10 or more minutes per drawer on soft-close types), installed and drawer fronts drilled, handles mounted and fully aligned as opposed to leaving the poor fitter to do it all on site (which from experience is what the average back-street kitchen shop does). If you are talking KD carcasses then most people I know reckon on a 15 to 20 minute assembly time per carcass - more if it's a complex one such as a corner solution or oven/pantry housing. If you can CNC drill and the assembly is being done on a batch production basis then his time estimates are achievable without any fancy software, if not then they are plain baloney. I would, however, point out that times like those are only achievable in a fully-equipped semi-industrial workshop. I doubt that a small home shop simply could begin to approach these times - for example, how quickly can you edge-band and trim three edges per end of an upper caninet plus one edge per top, bottom and 2 x shelves? With an electric iron and a hand trimmer you'd be pushing it to edge band and trim the lot in under 10 minute, let alone cut it, notch-out for the hangers, drill for hinges, shelves, etc..... The point I'm making is that to achieve speed of throughput requires some investment in capital equipment and tooling. Even a basic "knife and fork" kitchen operation will have £10 to £15k tied-up in half-decent 2.5 or 3.2metre panel saw, static edgebander and drilling jigs, hinge borer, et al.

Scrit

 

[Scott]

Hi psachs

Welcome to the forum. I think I know the circ saw you are on about but I'm damned if I can remember the name of it. Saw it advertised a while back (maybe last year). Think it was about 100 quid and was advertised as a miracle saw that can cut anything with the same blade.

To be honest it all looked like twaddle to me and maybe something that your missus (bless her in her innocence) would buy you from Argos for Crimbo but wouldn't actually be much use for anything.

Jack of all trades & Master of none I reckon. As said before, I'd like to see the state of the cut in wood after it's been munching through metal and bricks etc.

I reckon it's a waste of time. Forget it and get yourself a Mafell or Festool system and just accept the cost as part of the cost of your kitchen. You'll have gained an excellent tool in the process.

Best o' luck
Cheers

 

[Colin C]

One more choice to that is the EZ system as well as the Mafell or Festool,
but you dont have to buy a new saw if you have one already.

Scott
I am not saying you are wrong about the saw ( and I think it is sold in B&Q but I cant remember what it is called ), but how can you say it is no good if you have not seen it in use :?

 

[Scott]

Scott
I am not saying you are wrong about the saw ( and I think it is sold in B&Q but I cant remember what it is called ), but how can you say it is no good if you have not seen it in use :?

Fair point Colin but I did only say it looked like rubbish. Didn't say it WAS. Apologies psachs if I didn't make it clear that I don't actually have any experience of using the saw.

Generally (and this is a personal opinion only) I tend to think that tools that are touted as one tool being able to do the job of several existing tools are not as good as the dedicated tool they are hoping to replace and for this reason I avoid them.

 

[John McM]

B&Q market a circular saw called "RAGE" which claims to cut through metal etc as well as wood.

 

[Anonymous]

B&Q market a circular saw called "RAGE" which claims to cut through metal etc as well as wood.

That's the one.

I spoke to the shop this morning and they told me it was the Evolution range the guy was referring to.

Evolution have lots of years experience in Metal site work saws and have brought this range out as a trade/consumer range.

I'm cheeky me so I called Evolution and they told me that the saw was designed as a spin off to their industrial saw and has all the same parts for the motor etc, but a cheaper base plate to keep the price down and make it more attractive to the light trade, home user market.

The blade supplied, they say.

"will cut anything from wood to 6mm steel plate and will last a long time. However it is a 20 tooth blade with a standard 20mm bore so it can be replaced with any standard 185mm wood blade for constant wood use and will give as good a cut as the blade will allow. The dust collection was designed for metal dust on site so is far better than most saws in the market at collecting dust without a vacuum, but it has a standard vacuum port for those who want to use one."

They also told me that B&Q were helpful as they ordered enough of the saws to enable Evolution to produce them in quantity and thereby keep the price down.

They also told me that B&Q have a 20% off power tool sale and are selling them at a loss. So I bought one this morning £79 instead of £99, to try it. Who cares, if it isn't any good I can take it back - so nothing to loose.

I'll let you know how I get on with it over the weekend when I test it out.

 

[Roger]

"this system will allow people use their computer to design their own kitchen in 3D , give them a complete cutting list of parts needed and optimise them onto large boards to show how to cut them. Then the parts can be cut using their tooling system and assembled using a jointing system which will be included in the package".

Sounds a bit like the eCabinet system from the States, all based on CNC production.

I know they now have reps. in the U.K. now. It'll be interesting to see what happens .....

 

[Scrit]

I have a copy of eCabinets. It has a number of serious deficiencies - all the parts libraries (i.e. the drawings for sinks, appliances, doors, etc) are American manufacturers, a major problem. Also, whilst you can generate your own libraries it does require a copy of AutoCAD to do so (plus a lot of time). Lastly the output is targetted at only the Thermwood CNC routers - hardly common in the UK. Ho, hum.....

Scrit

 

[Shultzy]

Don't understand this need for speed (unless this is your business). I think that accuracy and presentation is more important. Also the longer you take designing a project the more likely that it will be exactly what you want (or SWIMBO's):lol:

 

[Roger]

targetted at only the Thermwood CNC routers - hardly common in the UK. Ho, hum.....

Oh yes! I played with that quite a lot over there.

I think quite a few may be taken in by this - it's a whole new ball game, but they're trying

 

[Paul Chapman]

I spoke to the shop this morning and they told me it was the Evolution range the guy was referring to.

This looks like it http://www.evolutionpowertools.com/evol ... index.html

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Anonymous]

Don't understand this need for speed

Speed certainly isn't an issue - not for me. At this stage I'll be glad to be able to make a cabinet, let alone do it in any record time.

I had a quick 'play' with the Evolution this evening, using some MDF I picked up from Wickes on the way home.
I have to say I was impressed (not that will mean too much as I don't have any experience to relate to).

The saw was quieter than I expected from those I have seen other people use, and there was so little dust I would be almost happy to use it in the house with no problem.

I tried what they did on their video on the Evolution web site and cut through the MDF, a copper pipe, an old peice of worktop and a piece of angle iron all at the same time. I thought I might as well try and break the saw 'cos I can always take it back if it fell apart doing what they show on their web site.

It was a bit scary looking at all that lined up on my old workmate, but when I had finished I thought 'what was I worried about'.

I'm not sure if this is the right tool for making cabinets, but it is certainly fun and I must say I was disappointed when my good lady called me in for dinner, but am looking forward to 'playing' over the weekend. - I'll keep you posted.

Hey - just had a thought! Wonder if I could use it to carve the roast joint on Sunday :?

 

[pewe]

I have been watching this thread with interest, and have decided to respond, and in doing so do not want to appear to be advertising - so if any of the moderators feel that this post is inappropriate, please delete it and I will not be offended.

I could be wrong, but I think I know what psachs is talking about in his initial post as I don't think there are likely to be more than one supplier looking at doing what he suggested.

If I am right, part of what he has described is correct, but some parts of the information relayed to him were mis-represented (probably as a result of Chinese whispers).

The facts are these:

There is a software package that will allow users to very quickly design Kitchens in 3D, and is capable of producing a full cutting list for the cabinets.
However for the cutting list to work the software requires a special catalogue to be installed, and each 'manufacturer' can have their own catalogue written to reflect the way the cabinet is constructed.
As well as the cutting list capability, the software can also produce a 'Bill of Material' which can have all the other parts (such as legs, hinges, dowels etc) included too - if the catalogue is designed that way.

I've seen basic packages at under £1000 but the problem is that the cheap packages are extremely limited in the styles and types of carcasses available and their parts lists don't normally include any sort of optimised sheet cutting plan. They normally won't handle 3rd party door designs (i.e. you get a limited library of styles, but can't add your own CAD designs) and you're frequently stuck with "standard" carcass sizes - so 558mm wide carcasses to fit an "odd" wall are out as well as 930mm high upper cabs for that Victorian kitchen.

The software I am talking about is no where near the £1000 mark, and can link to board optimisation software packages to produce the layouts.
The software (without the cutting list/optimisation features) is a free download. There is no up front license fee as the software works on a 'pay as you plan' basis - hours available for planning can be topped up similar to a pay as you go mobile phone.

The cabinet sizes are fully customisable (ie can be altered by the designer) and the cutting list information (where available) takes any such changes into account.
The door styles in the catalogue can be modified, or added too as long as the user has the inclination to do so and is prepared to learn the procedure - although the procedure would not be difficult to learn for anyone who understands how spreadsheets work.

The software is used world wide by thousands of Kitchen/Bathroom/Bedroom studios, and some of the larger kitchen manufacturers recommend it exclusively as they have their catalogues available for it for use by their customers.

I represent the software supplier here in the UK, and I am a little annoyed that one of my customers has leaked some information shared with him in confidence - although in fairness to him he probably discussed it with someone unrelated to the industry and never dreamt it would end up being discussed on a public forum.

The information I refer to is regarding a project we are working on to develop a package which will be launched in the new year (if everything goes to plan).
The package will include all of the software and catalogues required to produce 3D kitchen designs, and a complete cutting list and a board optimiser to produce layout drawings for all the cabinets - as well as a bill of material listing all the other parts.
The package will also include a system of equipment for easily and quickly cutting the cabinet panels and assembling them.
The comments regarding the time within which it may be possible to cut and assemble cabinets are purely speculative on the part of the person who made them, as even we have not yet tested out the full system as we still have one or two items to finalise.
With regard to the comments regarding cost, they too are speculative, but we are aiming for a package price which will include all the necessary software and the tooling system for the board cutting to come in at under £600.

I have refrained from mentioning any products in this post as
a) we are not yet ready to launch, and
b) I am not sure that it would be well received here if we did - if I am wrong, please let me know and I will be happy to post details when we are ready.

Alternatively if anyone would like to discuss the project further or offer any input whilst we are still in the development stage, please PM me.

 

[RogerS]

pewe...I appreciate your candour and restraint..as I am sure do others. Good luck to the new project. It will stand on its' own merits in the marketplace ! :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

pewe - thanks for the information
I am really keen to find out more
but forgive my ignorance, what does PM mean?

 

[Alf]

Private Message - hit the "PM" button at the bottom of pewe's post.

 

[Anonymous]

Dohhhh = silly me.


Thanks Alf