Help/info about 16a plug

[LeChuck]

Hi folks,

I am hoping someone here will be able to share some info on this. I guess it's more of an electrical issue.

I'm in France and planning to outfit a workshop soon. Having recently moved from the US, I am way more into "cabinet" type saws than what we find here (and there isn't much choice in France anyway). I intend to try and buy a table saw from Lyndhurst in the UK. I notice that they mention the saw should run off of a 16a circuit and it is provided with a 16a plug.

We do not have this distinction in France. The power plugs in my house are running on 16a circuits (and the saw will be in a room on the ground floor for a while, regular household current), so that should be ok, but I am wondering if in the UK you can easily replace that 16a plug with a "regular" plug and in which case I should also be able to replace it with one of our regular plugs as well...Would I find regular power, neutral and ground, or additional leads as well? I'm not much of an electrician.

The saw's power is rated for 240V. We normally have 220-230V here. Would this mean that it would actually draw a bit more amps?

Thanks for any help.

David

Edit: I see some "caravan" plug adaptors that are sold in the UK as well as France. Is that "caravan" plug the same as the 16a plug I am talking about and does anyone know if they are the same as our caravan plugs?

 

[SVB]

I think the caravan (or Cee Form to use the more normal name) type plug / socket should be the one.

I don't think the traditional household plug is rated for more than 13A.

Not sure if the saw requires a specific type of trip (high start up current?) - others will no doubt be along to advise.

BRgds
Simon

 

[jhwbigley]

in france, each socket has its own breaker, and yes there rated at 16amps, it should be a simple case of replacing the plug with a standard french one (with the correct fuse)

John

 

[Deejay]

Hello David

http://www.diynot.com/forums/viewforum. ... 43bcc9f1b8

might give you some help.

'The saw's power is rated for 240V. We normally have 220-230V here. Would this mean that it would actually draw a bit more amps?'
If the motor was designed for 240 volt and you run it on a 230 volt supply, it will actually draw a bit less current. I wouldn't worry about it. ( The UK used to have a nominal 240 volt supply, but a few years ago we brought it into line with the European standard. )

Simon mentioned the start up current tripping a standard domestic breaker. Night Train posted this link in an earlier thread which gives an explanation.

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Technical/D ... on/Mcb.htm

If the supplier specifies a 16 amp supply, you will probably have to change the breaker to the French equivalent of type C.

If I were you, I'd get a French electrician to have a look at it. 230 volts is enough to kill you.

Cheers

Dave

 

[LeChuck]

Thanks for your responses guys.

I didn't know that the plugs have their own breakers. That said, I have identified that in the room where my tools will be, half of the sockets are connected to one 16A breaker on the main panel and the other half on another 16A breaker (they also connected some plugs on the second floor to that one but what's connected to those will draw little current, LCD TV and living room stuff).

Also, those breakers are identified as Hager C16, which I think means they are the C type you are mentioning (this is a very old house but electricity was totally redone 10 years ago).

Does that means it should be all peachy?

Now my thinking is that I will only be using one power tool at a time, except when I use a dust collector along with the power tool. Since the table saw will most likely be the one to watch, I will connect the dust collector on the other circuit. Perhaps the dust collector should be the one on the separate circuit actually...

David

 

[Deejay]

Hello David

Have these breakers got a part number on them?

Cheers

Dave

 

[LeChuck]

Not sure if it's the part number but I can read "MF 716 436716 a" at the bottom.

David

 

[Steve (Correze)]

French sockets are indeed rated at 16 amps and connected to a 16 amp breaker, maximum of 8 sockets for one circuit I believe, or is it 5 under the latest regulations?

(Forget anything you know about UK ring mains and fused plugs, they don't exist here)

You might find that the saw is actually fitted with a European 25 amp plug, similar to the standard French plug but about twice the diameter, seen that before.

It'll be wired live/neutral/earth as per any single phase kit, the only way you'd have more wiring is if it were three-phase, which would be obvious as you'd have more pins on the plug.


Question, is your house single or three-phase? Lots of rural French houses are three-phase, frequently with very low amperage on each phase. For example, I have a 9kW/45A supply (yes, I know it's actually 9.9kW), with 15A (3,300W) per phase, so while the sockets may be rated for 16A, my supply would trip out if I tried to draw that much.


French plugs/sockets are wired with live on the right hand side, same as a UK plug/socket, if you were wondering, though some manufacturers (notably Legrand's domestic range) don't follow this standard and "euro plugs" (which are banned in my workshop) can be inserted either way...

 

[LeChuck]

Thanks Steve.

While I live in Brittany, my house is not rural. It's actually a town house right downtown. As far as I can tell, the electrical installation is just regular and relatively modern. The whole electrical system was entirely redone 10 years ago. Is there a way to tell for sure? There is a 32A connection for the stove, if that means anything.

David

 

[Steve (Correze)]

Probably single phase if there's a 32A plug for the stove.

Check the meter, if it says"Triphasé" somewhere...


Either way, if you're able to run a cooker, a 3kW saw won't be a problem, just wire up your plug and away you go.

 

[LeChuck]

Thanks for the reassurance Yes, we're running a good size electrical (with halogen) stove in the kitchen on the 32A plug, along with all the usual equipment. I also already have a table saw in the place where the new one will be. That said, that TS is a 1.5kW model with a horribly loud brush motor. Not sure how much current that draws.

I'll check on the meter tomorrow.

Thanks!

 

[Deejay]

Not sure if it's the part number but I can read "MF 716 436716 a" at the bottom.

David

Do these breakers look like this?

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Manufacture ... index.html

The part number I was after is the two or three capital letters followed by two or three digits.

If you go to

http://www.lyndhurstwoodworking.co.uk/t ... 91_578.htm

and scroll down towards the bottom of the page, it says

16 AMP PLUG SUPPLIED
We recommend a 16amp plug and socket and a C rated circuit breaker for protection.

Is this the saw you are buying?

Cheers

Dave

 

[LeChuck]

The breakers look like the C type on that page, although not identical. I looked up the French MF 716 and I'm really not sure if our "courbe C" corresponds to the Type C in the UK. It looks like the French "courbe D" is what is generally needed for motor applications. I asked a quesiton on a french forum and hope someone will know.

Dave, that's the saw I'm thinking of buying but I'm not entirely sure at this point. I can't make up my mind. I would like something of that quality but if it could be just a tad smaller that would be nice. That said, any other saw has a price that brings me back to the Deft as a much better deal.

David

 

[Deejay]

Hello David

I can't find a reference to an MF 716 breaker on the Hager UK site. It may be supplied for the French market only, possibly of the type that isolates both line and neutral when it trips.

You say that all your breakers look like type C, so it could well be that the French use different names. I wouldn't expect all the breakers to be capable of handling motor circuits.

One thing to remember is that if you change a breaker to a type which handles motors, is that all the sockets on that circuit will only cause a trip at a higher current than if they are served by a 'normal' curve breaker.

If there is a spare slot on the distribution board, you might think about having one or more dedicated circuits installed for your workshop machines.

Good luck with the French forum. If that fails, why not try Hager's site for technical support?

Cheers

Dave

 

[LeChuck]

Thanks DeeJay. I still don't have a definite word on this from the French forum but someone seems to say the breaker should handle that type of load and that what they call "D curve" here would be for much higher load.

So, still no definite word. I will look into this some more and perhaps contact Hager as you suggest (why didn't I think of that, perhaps because companies tend to never answer info requests here...).

I haven't made my mind on which saw to get but I do know that I would probably get a saw with lower power requirements rather than go through the hassle and expense of having an exlectician rewire this. As I mentioned, it is not a dedicated workshop.

David

 

[Steve (Correze)]

I'd suggest just trying it as is (with a French plug). if it trips the breaker on starting, add a dedicated circuit with a slower tripping breaker, and fit the saw and circuit with 20A or similar plugs, so nothing else can be connected by accident.

Or swap one breaker for a 16A fuse.

Deejay - breakers in France have to isolate both live and neutral, as you can't be sure that the plug hasn't been reversed.

 

[Deejay]

I'd suggest just trying it as is (with a French plug). if it trips the breaker on starting, add a dedicated circuit with a slower tripping breaker, and fit the saw and circuit with 20A or similar plugs, so nothing else can be connected by accident.

Or swap one breaker for a 16A fuse.

Deejay - breakers in France have to isolate both live and neutral, as you can't be sure that the plug hasn't been reversed.

Good idea Steve. 'If it ain't broke' .... etc.

The dual pole isolation would explain why the breakers are not on the Hager UK site.

Cheers

Dave

 

[LeChuck]

Well, I've decided to go ahead and get the saw, and then see how it goes and go from there. If I need to call in an electrician that shouldn't be too major of a change. Better than to live with regret

Thanks all for the help and advice!

 

[LeChuck]

Hello folks. Just for a conclusion to this (I'm certain some were dying to know!), I did get the 3HP table saw and bandsaw from Lyndhurst (great service with personal delivery here in France), and just replaced the plugs with French ones, and it works without a problem, no tripping. Short dimming of the lights when it's turned on and that's it.

 

[RogerS]

....Short dimming of the lights when it's turned on and that's it.

Is that just you or the whole street ? :wink: