Help Identifying Old Box

[jimi43]

At the bootfair today...apart from some other goodies which I will relate later....I picked up this rather nice old pine box....

I have a feeling it is from the early 1800s but I would like to request the wealth of intelligence here to confirm this....more details:

The hinges are handmade with hand forged nails:

Below all the fascinating labels inside is a date which I think is 1850 but I feel the hinges place it slightly earlier...

Original bracing is intact....

The lock is original and has not been removed as far as I can see...sadly no key...

Finally we see the back of the hinge and another brace...

What do you guys and gals think?

Cheers in anticipation

Jim

 

[Richard T]

Assuming those lock screws are original - I was just swatting up on wood screw history - if they are machine made and pointy, they're post 1840, if machine made and blunt ended a short time before that, or hand made right back to 1600s.
Hand made screws were firstly made by blacksmiths a la nails, then slotted and threaded by screw makers... a lot of work and very expensive. I'd guess on a box like that, that the lock would have been riveted in too if screws were uber expensive ?

 

[brianhr]

If you want a key made for the lock please PM me. The lock will need to be removed and posted to me. It will be made on a modern steel blank but this can be aged later if necesary.

Brian

 

[jimi43]

Assuming those lock screws are original - I was just swatting up on wood screw history - if they are machine made and pointy, they're post 1840, if machine made and blunt ended a short time before that, or hand made right back to 1600s.
Hand made screws were firstly made by blacksmiths a la nails, then slotted and threaded by screw makers... a lot of work and very expensive. I'd guess on a box like that, that the lock would have been riveted in too if screws were uber expensive ?

Hi Richard

Thank you for the insight into screws through the ages...fascinating stuff....

I think these screws and the lock are 100% from day one. They have not been moved and even very gentle but firm application of the correct tipped screwdriver will not budge them, at least...not without the risk of breaking the heads.

They are all different and appear to be handmade...the slots are not even...I will try to take some close-ups.

So this leads me on to your kind offer Brian...

If you want a key made for the lock please PM me. The lock will need to be removed and posted to me. It will be made on a modern steel blank but this can be aged later if necesary.

Brian

If I can't get the screws out the lock ain't going nowhere fast...

This little box is so very "untouched" that I don't want to do anything to change that status...

I am pretty tired after and effective 4:30am start...followed by mad dash home...and straight to work until just now...knackered comes to mind. So I will revisit tomorrow and let you both know the outcome.

Just one more thing Richard...what do you think about the hinges...? I am sure they are blacksmith made...but do they follow a style which could date them? I have had a cursory glance at Google and drawn a blank so far...

Cheers guys

Jim

 

[Richard T]

Those hinges have very crisp edges. So they have either been hot forged and then filed up or cold punched and the burrs filed off. I would guess the latter as the iron is thin enough and once set up, lots could be knocked out.
This doesn't give me much idea regarding dating but it's not really a very English thing to do; the Americans were fond of removing signs of smithing by filing things up smooth and I guess this came from European, perhaps Germanic/Dutch influence.
Any clues from the labels, or are they later additions?

Brian, you could be a very useful chap to know

 

[jimi43]

Hi Richard

There are at least two if not three labels on the inside of the lid....(click on pic for HI RES version)



As you can see...this is the history of the box...the fascinating stuff!

The underlying label is dated 20 February 50, which, judging by the overlying label script style is 1850 not 1950.....

The overlying torn label is a list of clothing which someone has put in the box...probably for a trip on a coach....and a man. It is all undergarments so this leads me to think 1800s where a gentleman would change his underwear but not his shirts and overclothing...UPDATE - Having read the HI RES image more closely...what I thought said "small socks" in fact reads "small forks" - I think! so this is a list of cutlery in the box. The lower label also appears to be a note about books from publication and some within six months publication sent to Miss....xxxx so probably a book order for an "INTERMEDIATE CLASS" perhaps a course?...the plot thickens!

Note the script...very Victorian or earlier IMHO....

There is also one tiny issue with the box...which is a small wooden chip out of one bottom front corner. It exposes the nails used....(click for HI RES)



I am in two minds about what to do with this small issue....leave it as a war wound which shows the nails used and is useful for identification or fix it so it is invisible with some pitch pine which I have which would match beautifully....

I am falling towards the "leave it" choice.

Again...comments from restorers gratefully received.

Jim

 

[Harbo]

I am not at home at the mo but I have a book that Chris Schwarz etc reproduced "The Joiner and Cabinet Maker" where the young apprentice had to make a travelling box using nails etc in the 1830's?
I think Alf has a copy but will look it up when I get back home.

Rod

 

[jimi43]

I am not at home at the mo but I have a book that Chris Schwarz etc reproduced where the young apprentice had to make a travelling box using nails etc in the 1830's?
I think Alf has a copy but will look it up when I get back home.

Rod

Hi Rod

That's fantastic!

Will await your deliberations.

Jim

 

[woodbloke]

Interesting little box Jimi, with a bit of history attached. I'd be inclined to leave that little patch well alone. I'ts easily doable to fix it, but staining to match the original box patina isn't something I'd want to tackle - Rob

 

[jimi43]

Interesting little box Jimi, with a bit of history attached. I'd be inclined to leave that little patch well alone. I'ts easily doable to fix it, but staining to match the original box patina isn't something I'd want to tackle - Rob

It is indeed Rob and the patina is stunning...just check the top...

I am fairly used to matching delicate work where damage is extensive...for example...remember the old Tyzak plane with a base that had a huge hole in it...

Well...that needed restoring as it was a structural issue which would have deteriorated had I not made a patch piece and try to match it...as you can see...it is close to invisible...

...except under strong flash light and needs distressing a bit more but....

I think it works....but from my guitar restoration experience...if this were an old Telecaster with a great chip out of it...I would consider it part of the patina itself and not restore it...if it were a warped neck...I would have to fix it for it to work...so I think this is a similar issue.

I am with you though...it's part of the history and although I could match the patina so you wouldn't notice it without close examination...I think it should stay, particularly since it allows access to the construction history.

Thanks for your views!

Cheers

Jim

 

[woodbloke]

Having seen the excellent job done on the plane :mrgreen: :mrgreen: Jimi I reckon you could do a similar job on the box (not something I could do though) but as you say, whether it's a desirable thing to do is a moot point. Personally I agree that it's part of the history of the piece and does go someway to showing the construction so I agree with you...leave alone - Rob

 

[Scouse]

... a book that Chris Schwarz etc reproduced "The Joiner and Cabinet Maker" where the young apprentice had to make a travelling box using nails etc in the 1830's?

Jimi, Roy Underhill talks to Chris Schwarz about this very topic, both 18th/19th century box making and the young apprentice, in this video

http://www.pbs.org/woodwrightsshop/video/3000/3010.html

 

[AndyT]

Hi Jimi

I think the 1850 label is about membership of a lending library (also called a circulating library). Before council funded public libraries, these were private enterprises and charged fees. The charges were higher for recently published books - just like a DVD shop now, which would charge more for this month's releases than it would for old stuff most people have seen. So your lady could only afford an 'intermediate class' subscription and had to wait till books had been out a while before she could read them.

Presumably, the subscriber's books were packed up in the box for dispatch, with the same box going back and forth lots of times.

This is just from memory, but I'll have a quick search for some more info.

Fascinating stuff, and I'm jealous again!

 

[jimi43]

Hi Rob

I concur with your conclusion...it stays! Thing is I have about 300 little pitch pine blocks in my back porch just waiting to be laid as a kitchen floor (when the TUIT arrives!)...and each time I leave the house they seem to be winking at me and calling..."you know you can use one of us for that wee box - boy!". It's hard to ignore when yer wood speaks to you so clearly! :mrgreen:

Scouse...thanks for spending the time finding the link...much appreciated and Chris gives a great review of that old book...I have to get that book now, I hope you realise! But that is the journey! It's not the cost of the item that is the value...it's the story it has to tell over 200 years of life that makes spending £15 so worthwhile in the end! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: 8)

Bootfairs...early bird...worms.... :wink:

Andy...what is so bleedin' amazing about this wonderful forum is the immense collective store of knowledge that makes it so valuable to be part of UKW. The fact that you actually know the social history of private libraries in the Georgian period simply blows me over!

And what a fascinating story it is. It ties in perfectly with the text that says "Of the books to be allowed to Subscribers of this class, one half (?) may be new and the remainder have been Published upwards of Six Months. The Monthly Publication ......included.....(.....one Volume) at One Month - the Quarterlies at Two Months - after Publication."

There then follows a description of Exchange terms.....so presumably these are the terms and conditions relating to exchange for further "lending" within the Intermediate Class contract which costs £3 3s 0d for 12 months which is a HUGE amount for that time. I'm pretty sure it's a date of 20.2.50 because it's not a 2 or a 3 under the covering part of the label above. I might try a UV lamp to see if I can make it clearer.

What a wonderful story...and piece of social history...and to end this post...I learned today from Roy and Chris that the nails were deliberately bent over to act as tightening clasps...a thing I always thought was a mistake...too long nails...too thin stock...silly me!

Cheers guys indeed! =D> =D> =D>

Jim

 

[feswood]

...UPDATE - Having read the HI RES image more closely...what I thought said "small socks" in fact reads "small forks" - I think! so this is a list of cutlery in the box. The lower label also appears to be a note about books from publication and some within six months publication sent to Miss....xxxx so probably a book order for an "INTERMEDIATE CLASS" perhaps a course?...the plot thickens!

are you sure its not small pocks if people in kent start dropping like flys then we know you have caused a plague

 

[AndyT]

Jimi

I read up a bit more on subscription libraries last night. The 'category killer' of the day was Mudie's, which set the market rate and really did charge a guinea a year, which let you borrow as many books as you wanted, but only one at a time.

I think your label would have been filled in to say "3 vols" on the top line, making 3 guineas (£3 3s 0d) per year. As you say, a huge amount for the time.

What was especially clever about Mudies was that they had such a stranglehold on the publishers that they managed to force them to publish popular novels in 3 volumes - at the huge price of 31s 6d (1½ guineas) for the set. The high price made the subscription rate attractive, and dividing books into three parts meant all three could be out on subscription at once, earning money. (It got to the point where the 'triple decker' structure became a burden on authors, who had to stretch out their stories to fit it, inventing cliffhanger endings at the ends of volumes one and two.)

I've not found explicit evidence of a delivery service, but as these libraries were quite large they were only in principal towns - I can't believe that enterprising Victorians wouldn't have offered a rapid delivery option. LoveFilm and the like are doing nothing new!

As you say, a lovely item, especially with the history. This is getting to feel like Antiques Roadshow!

 

[jimi43]

Thanks Andy. I'm in Kings at mo awaiting slot for bypass op. Four me the little tubes unfortunardly. This threadwill keep me same, even on tiny mobile screen. Keep the info coming mate. Jim

 

[Scouse]

Good luck Jim, hope things go well.

 

[jimi43]

Just running through the honing techniques with the surgeon now Scouse. Just have to check with Jacob whether to use japanese waterstones or just an old slab of Charnley he found at the end of the garden!

 

[jimi43]

Andy. Sorry mate, rather hard typing on mobile screen especially with dowell hole in wrist! Getting laptop today otherwise insanity will set in! Read up too on the social history of libraries. But think this is one of the older ones. Was he around in 1850? Jim