Has anyone converted a T/S to accept dado blades

[Adam]

Indeed if what I find here: http://www.greatbritishwoodshop.co.uk/D ... ?tabid=170 is correct then this is the actual legislation: (at bottom)

Does a longer arbour actually break the law? Is this actually anything to do with arbours at all? You could after all restrict it in other ways, by putting an plate which only accepts 15.5mm and below, on a long arbour. When it was tested it would, technically meet the CE requirement - of course we know woodworkers would take this straight out and make another if needed to run a larger stacked dado set. Still, in its "purchased" for the saw would, technically be CE compliant.

The specification for saw tables as issued by the British Standards Institute, (this is the body that issues the CE certification to tool manufacturers), states that the maximum width of cutting blade (currently acceptable to the BSI) must not exceed 15.5mm, that’s over a half an inch in width, and this is what is currently allowable, but none of the manufacturers we have seen are taking advantage of this, we are not sure why. That's a pretty wide dado and would certainly make life easier for all the British woodworkers that long to perform this type of operation.

There are a couple of other issues that must be accommodated for example, the blade must come to a standstill within 10 seconds of the machine being stopped, a restriction on the saw blade diameter, they must make sure the saw blade can not come loose during start up, running, run down or braking and recommendations are made in the BSI document on how this can be achieved and flanged bushes need to be provided where the spindle diameter is different from the bore size of the saw blade. All these things considered there certainly seems room for manufactures to take advantage of grooving operations for UK saws. The other point to make is that manufacturers do not have to follow the guidelines outlined in the BSI document. These are purely guidelines, any manufacture can submit a design to the BSI and they will check it and test it to ensure it meets their requirements and if it does it will be passed even if it’s not exactly the way the guidelines are currently written. This allows the manufacturer room to be inventive in how they design their equipment.

 

[Newbie_Neil]

This is the reply from Woodford: -

"Our main cabinet saws are certified and the other two models we sell are
near the end of the process for CE certification."

So they are selling two models that are not certified for sale in the EU.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[White House Workshop]

I can buy a set of moulding cutters for my tablesaw. I wonder what CE would make of them???

 

[BradNaylor]

This is the reply from Woodford: -

"Our main cabinet saws are certified and the other two models we sell are
near the end of the process for CE certification."

So they are selling two models that are not certified for sale in the EU.

Cheers,
Neil

This comes as no suprise. Woodford have always sailed a little close to the wind.

A salesman who is no longer with them used to admit openly that they sold tablesaws that were not up to spec - on the basis that they were for non-commercial use only. But if a customer used a saw for trade use afterwards - what could they do about it?

Still, its nice to know they're getting things sorted. :roll:

Rgds
Dan

 

[andy king]

But if a customer used a saw for trade use afterwards - what could they do about it?

My contact at the HSE said it was what 'THEY' could do about it! He implied the HSE would target the importer, not necessarily the end user, unless he/they knowingly used the saw in a trade environment.

Andy

 

[David C]

I was under the impression that dado saw use had been banned by health and safety?

And that modern table saws had deliberately short spindles so that they could not be fitted?

Sorry if I have failed to read the above sufficiently but I would like to know the current position on this matter.

My students seem to be considered as employees for insurance and H&S issues.
The individual can of course do whatever he sees fit in his own workshop.

best wishes,
David

 

[Sawdust]

Unfortunately Scrit doesn't post here anymore otherwise you would get a definite answer but my understanding is that they have not been banned.

I think the rules say they cannot be used unless properly guarded and given that most table saws have a guard attached to the riving knife which is blade width, the normal guard can't be used.

Then there is the braking issue. Table saws have to stop within 10 secs, if a dado was fitted, either the arbor nut needs a lock or there is a potential for the whole lot to come undone during braking. Not a good thing.

I suspect that rather than provide adequate guarding and an arbor lock mechanism, most manufacturers thought it would be simpler and more cost effective (given the limited use of dado blades anyway) to sell tables saws with a short arbor.

Mike

 

[Adam]

I was under the impression that dado saw use had been banned by health and safety?

And that modern table saws had deliberately short spindles so that they could not be fitted?

Sorry if I have failed to read the above sufficiently but I would like to know the current position on this matter.

My students seem to be considered as employees for insurance and H&S issues.
The individual can of course do whatever he sees fit in his own workshop.

best wishes,
David

Trade rules are quite different to hobby. As I understand it from posts Scrit made in the past in a commercial situation you are obliged to consider the least risky method - i.e. something else such as a router, where guards etc can be used more appropriately. For any "CE" compliant say, it can only accept 'dados' up to 15.5mm, but no manufacturer currently offers anything like that (except Scheppach recently) nonetheless in a trade situation, even if such as a saw was CE approved, you wouldn't get past the hurdle of proving it was the least "risky" method.

Its not clear to me why manufacturers seem to use a short spindle, when, strictly speaking they do not appear to need to do so. It could be to limit the possibility of putting on a heavier blade set and then failing the 10second stop time.

Adam

 

[David C]

Thank you very much.

David

 

[seaco]

Unfortunately Scrit doesn't post here anymore otherwise you would get a definite answer but my understanding is that they have not been banned.

Do you mean Scrit or the Dado blades???... :wink:

As far as I know Dado blades are quite legal to use on a home or hobby saw as is mine a Delta Unisaw, but if the saw is to be used by any kind of trade or college etc. then they are completely banned...

 

[jonny boy]

Lee, Does your Unisaw have a 60hz motor? Does it get quite hot when run for a while?
Just some trouble i've had with mine.
cheers,
jon.

 

[jonny boy]

With regards to the Dado blade, Let's say for example, you cut your fingers off while using one. Who, when and where would this mysterious dado doctor come from and banish you to the place of devilish Dado users!!!!

jon.

 

[seaco]

Lee, Does your Unisaw have a 60hz motor? Does it get quite hot when run for a while?
Just some trouble i've had with mine.
cheers,
jon.

Hi Jon

To be honest, all I know is the motor was swapped out in the factory for the 50 or 60hz that's used in the UK I don't know which of the two is used here? and I don't get any problems with it over heating or cutting out I just have it running on a 16amp fuse...

 

[jonny boy]

Thanks for the reply Lee. You must have had the proper 50hz motor fitted by delta then. So at least now I know you can get hold of a 50hz motor from the US. Mind you, I bet they charge a few bob for em.
cheers anyway,
jon.

 

[seaco]

Thanks for the reply Lee. You must have had the proper 50hz motor fitted by delta then. So at least now I know you can get hold of a 50hz motor from the US. Mind you, I bet they charge a few bob for em.
cheers anyway,
jon.

Hi Jon

So as not to hijack this thread I'll send you a PM...

 

[andy king]

I think from the point of view of legality and the shorter spindle, I think the problem was removal of guarding to change over to a dado, and the need for a different guard such as a SUVA to use it, meant that the odds were in favour of guarding remaining off, and hence, danger.
By removing or limiting the opportunity it forced the user into safer machining methods. The onus is still on the end user to self assess the best machine, and if an accident occurs, the HSE can/will investigate and decide accordingly. There are advisory leaflets available.
Either way, despite the wealth of knowledge Scrit has on the industry regulations and safe practices, many people on this forum still do not heed the exceptionally good advice he gave.
I've said many times (as has Scrit) that in the pro field you have to be qualified to use and set up machines, but the amateur doesn't which can, in some cases, be an accident waiting to happen.
The poor practices that are shown on the American programmes such as Norm don't help this situation I'm afraid.
Putting a disclaimer up regarding guard removal for photography don't wash when I know full well the cuts being made are impossible with the guards on.
Poor working practice is poor working practice...

Andy

 

[Woody Alan]

Scheppach sell a chipper blade set that sort of does the same function as a dado up to a given width that I can't recall offhand and the only requirement is that it's properly suva guarded. Scrit has pointed out in the past that one of the only safe ways to guard a dado is with a shaw type guard and most saws are not set up for this as the fence is not clamped at the rear...and if you were trying to cut a dado half way up a bookcase side how would that work in practice.
I have a dado set and a saw that can take it and having tried it once was enough to conclude it isn't worth the hassle.
1) time to set up
2) inconsistent depth due to not being able to push sheet down consistently
3) trying to lift panels on to saw for short dados across as in bookshelves and then pushing across dado accurately (sliding table neccessary)
4) inability to easily do a stopped dado.
5) relative ease to do these cuts with a router freehand.

Alan

 

[devonwoody]

I must notify the moderators, I have never received any email notification of replies to this posting over the last 36 hours. (this has been happening quite regularly lately, is it happening to you?)


To Sawdust,
My thread asked if anyone has adapted the Axminster saw to a dado operation?


To Neil,
Not another dado thread!!!!!!

There are some very good messages to the posting of my thread, thanks.

I have alway thought that the time setting up a dado cutter would be laborious to a hobbyist, it was the wind up you get from woodworking articles they all seem to display using a dado setup.

 

[Philly]

John
Setting up a dado isn't exactly laborious. Swap out the regular saw blade, slide in the needed blades and chippers. Tighten, put in the dado table insert, take a test cut. I use dial calipers to measure the width of the cut and then add shims (using the dial caliper again to ensure you have enough). Make another test cut and check. Then blaze through the actual cuts.

No more drawn out than using a router and the actual cuts take moments - you can make the whole cut in one go, no taking multiple cuts to get the depth. And no re-setting the router fence to make the full width.

I find the dado quick to use, clean (the table saw extractor removes all the sawdust as it is not a through cut) and leaves a nice clean cut (using my Freud dado set). And much quieter than a router.
I don't use it often, but when I do I am glad I bought a machine that can take one.
Hope this helps
Philly

 

[devonwoody]

Philly.,Sounds good, but nobody has come forward and said they have done it with my Axminster AW10 model.

So I shall have to pass on this idea.