Hand planes

[Steve1066]

It's all rubbish. Does not matter if if 100 years old or 10 minutes old, cost £5 or £500. It's how you set it up and uses it that mater.
The old saying a it's a bad craftsmen that blames his tool is very true.
It's just tool snobs and collecters trying to justify the money they spend and out do each other.
I

I think you're wrong Steve. It's quality control.

I think if you bought 100 new Stanley planes back in 1917, you'd have maybe 1 or 2 shitters in there. If you bought 100 new Stanleys today you'd maybe get 10 that weren't shitters (just a rough estimate).

Just things like seasoning the castings so they don't keep stress relieving (i.e. moving) after they're machined - and general attention to detail.

People pay ridiculous prices for rarer old planes. But people also pay more than is necessary for a shiney new plane, which is also ridiculous, as it's the blade that does the cutting, not the chrome/paint. I don't know about American made Stanleys, but in Britain it seems quality control was declining seriously at Stanley from early 1950s, and at Record by the end of 1950s. There were many good planes made later than that, but the chances of getting a good one decrease slightly decade by decade.

If you keep an eye out for an older plane that isn't collectable, you should get a reasonable plane at a very reasonable price, and have less hassle getting it to perform well. Or buy a new one with a consumer guarantee - so you can exchange it a few times until you get a good one.

My tuppence worth.

Cheers, Vann.

I have no problem with old, new, expensive or cheep plane. My point is it doesn't matter what you got it's how you uses it.
An old plane will neeeh to be set up the same as a new cheep plane, I will say you will have to do it a bit more often in the first year or two with a cheep plane as you stated the casting are not seasoned properly, I know this from experience.
If you want to collect planes collect them, if you wish to spend large some of money on then do so.
It seems to me that some people try to justify this by saying " it's new it's cheep it's Rubbish "

I have more planes than I need. old, new, wood, Japanese and a nice paper wait, Stanley Sweathart low angle jack.
The planes I use everyday are cheep Faithful planes, had them 10 years I make a leaving with them they work fine on hardwood softwood end grain.
Cheep plane are not rubbish you just have to set them up in the same way you would and old second hand one you got from the local boot fair/ market.

 

[ED65]

An old plane will neeeh to be set up the same as a new cheep plane, I will say you will have to do it a bit more often in the first year or two with a cheep plane as you stated the casting are not seasoned properly, I know this from experience.

This may relate to the amount of work the planes are subjected to but I have two low-end no. 4s bought new and neither one has needed to be set up again after the (minimal) initial fettling work, most of the effort being expended on the cap irons.

Also, for anyone who has never bought cheap and doubts whether they can possibly work well, neither has had any work done to flatten its sole but they'll each take shavings of three or four thou without batting an eyelid. That's about 0.08mm for the purely metric thinkers out there.

 

[custard]

for anyone who has never bought cheap and doubts whether they can possibly work well, neither has had any work done to flatten its sole but they'll each take shavings of three or four thou without batting an eyelid. That's about 0.08mm for the purely metric thinkers out there.

That's not much of a recommendation! A four thou shaving is decidedly on the heavy side, that's a tool for a site carpenter rather than a cabinet maker.

If you're planing a drawer side for a piston fit, or teasing a shelf into a housing, or just jointing the edges of board to make up a top, then you'll need shavings finer than three or four thou. And if your plane won't get you there then you can't produce first class work.

The good news is that a bog standard Record or Stanley of any vintage can usually be brought up to cabinet making standards, but it's unlikely to perform at that level when you first get it.

 

[ED65]

Three or four thou shavings can be read through, I'd like to meet the site carpenter who would regularly require those :mrgreen: I am of course aware you can produce thinner shavings than that. I'm also aware they're not needed in 99.9% of cases.

And anyway, as has been repeated here many times before: we shouldn't judge the surface by the waste produced.

A smoothing plane taking 3-4 thou shavings can absolutely yield a pristine surface with no tearout on most woods, which is all most work requires. As D_W has posted a few times recently, you can do the same taking shavings a heck of a lot thicker than this, but I'll let him talk about that if he's inclined.

 

[Steve1066]

for anyone who has never bought cheap and doubts whether they can possibly work well, neither has had any work done to flatten its sole but they'll each take shavings of three or four thou without batting an eyelid. That's about 0.08mm for the purely metric thinkers out there.

That's not much of a recommendation! A four thou shaving is decidedly on the heavy side, that's a tool for a site carpenter rather than a cabinet maker.

If you're planing a drawer side for a piston fit, or teasing a shelf into a housing, or just jointing the edges of board to make up a top, then you'll need shavings finer than three or four thou. And if your plane won't get you there then you can't produce first class work.

The good news is that a bog standard Record or Stanley of any vintage can usually be brought up to cabinet making standards, but it's unlikely to perform at that level when you first get it.

Funny you should bring up drawer, I have just had to fit some with a tolerance of 0.2mm and my old Faithfull no4 got me there.

 

[D_W]

Three or four thou shavings can be read through, I'd like to meet the site carpenter who would regularly require those :mrgreen: I am of course aware you can produce thinner shavings than that. I'm also aware they're not needed in 99.9% of cases.

And anyway, as has been repeated here many times before: we shouldn't judge the surface by the waste produced.

A smoothing plane taking 3-4 thou shavings can absolutely yield a pristine surface with no tearout on most woods, which is all most work requires. As D_W has posted a few times recently, you can do the same taking shavings a heck of a lot thicker than this, but I'll let him talk about that if he's inclined.

If the iron has enough camber, that certainly leaves a suitable finish. In the light, you can see little scallops but that only matters if you care that you can see little scallops.

Good for drawer sides and such, and a nice shaving depth to take before very fine shavings on nicer surfaces. More than good enough for anything other than fine work show surfaces, though - and certainly much finer than the level of finish on my 1950s house, which is done well enough, but I can see the finish marks from the electric planer.

 

[custard]

Three or four thou shavings can be read through, I'd like to meet the site carpenter who would regularly require those :mrgreen: I am of course aware you can produce thinner shavings than that. I'm also aware they're not needed in 99.9% of cases.

They're not required for show surfaces, but they're absolutely required in the final fitting and jointing of pretty much every single piece I make!

 

[worn thumbs]

Three or four thou shavings can be read through, I'd like to meet the site carpenter who would regularly require those :mrgreen: I am of course aware you can produce thinner shavings than that. I'm also aware they're not needed in 99.9% of cases.

They're not required for show surfaces, but they're absolutely required in the final fitting and jointing of pretty much every single piece I make!

Interesting idea-do you give the owners of the furniture detailed instructions about permissible moisture content in their homes?

 

[custard]

I can't believe this is even a matter for debate!

Picture this, you're at your bench and you want to true up the end of an Oak drawer side, so you pull out your shooting board and set to. But your plane will only take a minimum shaving of three or four thou. That won't be a happy or successful experience, epic spelching and the workpiece will buck preventing an accurate cut.

Or you're jointing the edges of boards for a table top. Will a minimum shaving of three or four thou get you invisible glue lines? Not a hope.

Or you're truing up an over long table leg, you've scribed the mark you need to hit, but your plane connects with a teeth jarring three or four thou cut. Ouch!

I could go on and on.

The point is that taking a Record or Stanley plane to that next level of tune where you can get a one thou shaving will cost you about twenty minutes of effort. It doesn't take anything away from the plane's performance, it just adds additional and valuable functionality. So why wouldn't you do that?

 

[Steve1066]

I can't believe this is even a matter for debate!

Picture this, you're at your bench and you want to true up the end of an Oak drawer side, so you pull out your shooting board and set to. But your plane will only take a minimum shaving of three or four thou. That won't be a happy or successful experience, epic spelching and the workpiece will buck preventing an accurate cut.

Or you're jointing the edges of boards for a table top. Will a minimum shaving of three or four thou get you invisible glue lines? Not a hope.

Or you're truing up an over long table leg, you've scribed the mark you need to hit, but your plane connects with a teeth jarring three or four thou cut. Ouch!

I could go on and on.

The point is that taking a Record or Stanley plane to that next level of tune where you can get a one thou shaving will cost you about twenty minutes of effort. It doesn't take anything away from the plane's performance, it just adds additional and valuable functionality. So why wouldn't you do that?

You can take any plane and spend a bit of time setting it up and it will take a one thou shaving. It doesn't have to be a Stanley or a Record. It's the craftsman not the tool

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

After reading a conversation like this once I decided to measure shaving thickness, it was a slow work day, I found that if I give the calipers a good squeeze I can get 0 thou shavings.
I've had some planes that needed a bit more than some time "setting up" before they would work right, one was truly banana shaped (don't know by how much but enough to measure in fractions not thous), a plastic handled stanley, it is not possible to take fine shavings when they are like that, regardless of how good a craftsman you are. I got my local saw works (NLS of Waltham Cross) to grind all the soles flat for me , they charged me £5 per plane and £20 to square and flatten one 4 and one 5 (for shooting), it's not a service they offer but I am a regular customer and just asked. All the planes benefited from it and the banana one will now take super fine shavings, considering they all cost between £1 and £20 it did not seem like much to spend and saved me a lot of bother scraping or sanding the soles.
I only have one plane I've bought new, a quangsheng block plane from Workshop Heaven which worked straight from the box. If I were buying my first planes now I would probably go for a QS as you can get a metric by which to judge your other purchases and they're not that expensive especially as ebay prices for stanley/records seem to have gone up considerably since I last bought one

 

[Steve1066]

After reading a conversation like this once I decided to measure shaving thickness, it was a slow work day, I found that if I give the calipers a good squeeze I can get 0 thou shavings.
I've had some planes that needed a bit more than some time "setting up" before they would work right, one was truly banana shaped (don't know by how much but enough to measure in fractions not thous), a plastic handled stanley, it is not possible to take fine shavings when they are like that, regardless of how good a craftsman you are. I got my local saw works (NLS of Waltham Cross) to grind all the soles flat for me , they charged me £5 per plane and £20 to square and flatten one 4 and one 5 (for shooting), it's not a service they offer but I am a regular customer and just asked. All the planes benefited from it and the banana one will now take super fine shavings, considering they all cost between £1 and £20 it did not seem like much to spend and saved me a lot of bother scraping or sanding the soles.
I only have one plane I've bought new, a quangsheng block plane from Workshop Heaven which worked straight from the box. If I were buying my first planes now I would probably go for a QS as you can get a metric by which to judge your other purchases and they're not that expensive especially as ebay prices for stanley/records seem to have gone up considerably since I last bought one

Learning how to set up your tools probably is all part of being a craftsman there's nothing wrong with what you've done but you have learnt nothing about your tools so in the future if you accidentally drop one or you pick up another one that needs work doing to it you've got a pay somebody else to do it.,Or start the learning process again
Applied knowledge to gain experience this is how we learn.
I had never measured a shaving till recently,I have found reading the threads has opened up a world of knowledge to be applied and learnt from.

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

Steve, I understand what you are saying, but everyone has to decide how far to take self sufficiency. My main focus is on fixing boats and maintaining my tools so I can struggle on with life. When you buy a chisel do you buy one with a handle? Do you buy saws with teeth already cut? If I didn't have a mortgage, a child and an ex wife and could just potter about I would love to start out with a slab of quarter sawn beech and some O1 steel and make all my planes and saws, in fact it would be fun to start with some ore and build a forge, but my business model is already unrealistic enough.
I love reading the threads here from people who make their own tools, but there is always a limit, did they plant the tree that they are using for that saw handle? One day I will retire and can pursue these things.
Despite rapidly approaching 50 and having made and repaired things most of my life there is SOOO much I can still learn and how to save £5 flattening a plane sole is low on my list, and to be honest I don't think I would find it that difficult. On another thread recently someone commented that they make their own cross dowels because they are pricey, at about 5 pence each! Fair play to them, but I'd spend the 5p.
The comment about spending £100ish on a QS plane was directed mainly at the OP or other beginners. If you are teaching yourself "in the dark" with no one to show how a well tuned plane should work it is difficult to know when you have it right. I've never even touched a clifton or lie nielson, but my experience with my QS block plane leads me to believe that you can't really get a lot better than that. Beyond that buy any plane and make it work as well as the QS, you can even sell the QS on for not a lot less than you bought it for. This advice is obviously not directed at you.
By the way. the reason I am at home writing this nonsense rather than at the dock pursuing my unrealistic business model is because I left a chisel in a cupboard below my bench a couple of days ago and whilst reaching to retrieve something else it cut my finger down to the bone.
Paddy

 

[Trafalgar]

Great set of posts Paddy.

This, by the way, is PRICELESS:

"I found that if I give the calipers a good squeeze I can get 0 thou shavings."

 

[memzey]

Just noticed you're in Enfield Lock Paddy. We used to live on Aldridge Avenue and my in laws still live on Ordnance road. Whereabouts are you based? I'm often in the area and have probably gone past you more than once!

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

Just noticed you're in Enfield Lock Paddy. We used to live on Aldridge Avenue and my in laws still live on Ordnance road. Whereabouts are you based? I'm often in the area and have probably gone past you more than once!

At Enfield Dock at the very end of Ordnance Road South (next to river). You won't have driven past as we are in an industrial estate, but may well have walked past if you walk down the river. big white polytunnel opposite side of the river from where rifles pub used to be

 

[Steve1066]

the reason I am at home writing this nonsense rather than at the dock pursuing my unrealistic business model is because I left a chisel in a cupboard below my bench a couple of days ago and whilst reaching to retrieve something else it cut my finger down to the bone.
Paddy

if you can type you can work

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

the reason I am at home writing this nonsense rather than at the dock pursuing my unrealistic business model is because I left a chisel in a cupboard below my bench a couple of days ago and whilst reaching to retrieve something else it cut my finger down to the bone.
Paddy

if you can type you can work

I sincerely hope you're joking.
Last time I cut myself I went straight from the hospital back to work, got an infection, spent three days in hospital on a drip and they nearly amputated a finger.

 

[Trafalgar]

It sounds as if Paddy is enjoying one of the few perks of being self-employed, a day off every now and again or a start or end of day of one's own choosing. The only time being stolen from an employer is from oneself.

 

[Steve1066]

the reason I am at home writing this nonsense rather than at the dock pursuing my unrealistic business model is because I left a chisel in a cupboard below my bench a couple of days ago and whilst reaching to retrieve something else it cut my finger down to the bone.
Paddy

if you can type you can work

I sincerely hope you're joking.
Last time I cut myself I went straight from the hospital back to work, got an infection, spent three days in hospital on a drip and they nearly amputated a finger.

Yes joking. the days of super glueing a cuts are well and truly over
Rest and get well