Hand planes, are they worth it?

[Jinxy]

Hi all, first post. I've been into woodwork for about 2 years or so. Was inspired by a certain Yankee chap I've seen on tv a few years ago. Did the standard thing and started setting up a workshop and was pretty ignorant to hand tools (he seems to be allergic to them.) I then found some info and sharpened up a wilko no 4 hand plane I had from a few years back and it planes like a dream, after a lot of flattening and the like.

Having been so impressed with this I've decided to expand my set of planes and just been amazed the difference in price. I've seen some pretty snobbish answers been given to newbies on here but here goes...I really just wondered because I know there is a lot of you that have both, is the diffence in price relative to the performance of the plane?

My wilko £12 plane does a really good job after maybe 4 hours of graft. Could I use an axi £44 jointer plane and tuned it or I could save my pennies and buy a Clifton £355 plane? I'm just really was curious because tools in other industries don't seem to have such astronomic difference in price. Essentially I'm asking if they are a con or are they really worth saving for?

 

[marcros]

In my limited experience, as long as the starting entity is of reasonable quality, you can put a bit of work in and get good results. The premium brands- veritas, clifton and lie nielsen should be sorted from new- a quick home and away you go. The quengsheng level may need minor fettling and sharpening but should be reasonable from new.

When you move to faithful, new stanley, silverline, wilco- they can be a bit hit and miss. Sometimes they are good and can be fettle to give good results, other times they are not fit for purpose. The bargains, in my opinion are the old records and Stanley's, which may need a thorough clean and fettle but will reward you for it.

That said, my favourite of my small collection is a little lie nielsen block plane which I bought secondhand. It just works very well indeed.

I would spend 50-70 on a stanley or record jointer pre 1960 rather than 44 on an axi one. If I only had 444 to spend, I would probably spend 20 or less on a wooden jointer and save the difference.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Gloat factor comes into play. I'd rather someone was envious of a tool that I was using than one I had brand new and untouched, and still in a box on a shelf. I like to use my well fettled, older planes and chisels because they make me feel better. I am merely their custodian - they will always be worth what I paid for them, and they will be passed on to someone else who hopefully feels the same way. That's one reason why I like older stuff... but I can't afford top class new stuff anyway.
I've a No.4 corrugated Stanley with a Sweetheart iron, a No.6 corrugated Stanley with a Sweetheart iron, a lovely No.7 Marples, and a No.8 Stanley with a laminated Sweetheart iron - they are all well used, perform really well and have high gloat factor. I have several others as well. They didn't cost me much. (hammer)

 

[lanemaux]

For me Jinxy , the oldies are where it's at for many reasons, but that's just me. All of my bench planes are of the vintage variety because they predate any woodworking I've done , they were my gateway drug if you will. I've lusted after , handled and used some nice upper range stuff (Lee Valley , Lie Nielson and such like) and found them lovely . The owners say they are like that from the shop . but for the small amount of hobby work I do the expense is prohibitive. The Lee Valley jointer costs what I spent on a full lineup from #3 to #8 and a few hollows and rounds besides. That they all needed work to make them sing just made me more comfortable about using them as well. So as a counter question , what do you mean by worth it, time and labour or money?

 

[Jacob]

The main thing about the posh end is that they work out of the box and tend to be almost ***** proof which makes them ideal for beginners, if it wasn't for the astronomical price. The bevel up plane advantage is down to one simple thing - the absence of a cap iron and the difficulties a beginner would have getting it set up well.
That said - almost any old (or new) plane can be got to work just as well, given time and experience. There are extremes - I tried a Faithful 10 but it was unusable and beyond correction.
I've tried a few expensive ones but have only kept one - a Clifton 4 - nice plane but not worth it's keep, just reluctant to part with it. The cheaper Stanley SW 4 is just as good in use but less than perfect in other ways

 

[Vann]

When you move to faithful, new stanley, silverline, wilco- they can be a bit hit and miss. Sometimes they are good and can be fettle to give good results, other times they are not fit for purpose. The bargains, in my opinion are the old records and Stanley's, which may need a thorough clean and fettle but will reward you for it.

Wot he says.

If you can afford a new Clifton (or similar) they're very nice - gloatworthy, plenty of bling, will work right out of the box, and excellent backup from the manufacturer. But it's a lot of money.

A Faithful, Silverline, etc will have the bling look, but may or may not be fettleable. For the money, buy a pre 1960 Record or pre 1950 Stanley. That's not to say later ones are no good, but the chances of getting a good one are higher with the earlier ones. All will need a bit of fettling of course.

My tuppence worth.

Cheers, Vann.

 

[undergroundhunter]

The only new plane I have ever bough was a wicks cheepie (when I new no better) the rest are old Stanley, record and woodies. I now use the wicks one as a doorstop. I prefer the feel of an old tool, for instance my Stanley no7 is a type 11 and was owned by my wife's great grandfather, her dad gifted it to me too keep it in use and in the family when he could no longer push its heft. I have since acquired a matching no4 and would pick this up over any of my other smoothers, to me it just feels better "worn in" of you like.

Matt

 

[iNewbie]

Essentially I'm asking if they are a con or are they really worth saving for?

Well they're not a con - they're a product made and sold at a price you either chose to pay for or don't.

Are they worth saving for? Yes if you want one or it fits a specific purpose - need is another matter.

Through-out history people have made great things with lesser tools. Still are. The great thing about freedom of choice is you can buy what you like - notice the word "like".

I have some new tools and they were worth saving for - why shouldn't I own something that I enjoy other than crack. :mrgreen: I certainly don't gloat about them. I'm not sure how many people do that anyway, and others buy for whatever reason(s) - some like to not use them and keep them boxed......like collectors do with old tools.

The one advantage of a new, quality, tool is - with some: Lifetime Guarantee.

Buy what you want - your own sense will direct you.

 

[Bluekingfisher]

My view is having a mix of the two, expensive and cheap, is that, you can definitely see the difference in the quality of the engineering in the expensive plane. The high end planes have that hand built look to them where as the cheaper ones have the" stamped out on the line" appearance.

That said, I have a N03 Faithful which I spent about 2 hours on and it produces some waffer thin shavings.

If you enjoy the fettling aspect , then go with the already mentioned advice and buy some established tools like Stanley?Record etc and tune them to the degree you want them to perform to. Additional accessories such as cap irons and better blades will also enhance performance and not tthat expensive. i am awaiting some cap irons from Workshop Heaven to arrive for my No3 & 4 Stanley s. The good thing about buying old and tuning is you, will like I am doing now, learn a lot about how a plane is constructed, how it performs and gain an understanding of what makes a useable plane. That way you will always be able to keep it in top nick and as Phil.p mentioned, pass them onto to some other woodworker in generations to come.

The only problem is, it can be come an addiction. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!

Good luck

David

 

[Cheshirechappie]

The premium makes of plane - Lie-Nielsen, Clifton and Veritas - are all made to very high standards, with careful selection of materials, rigorous control of manufacturing quality, and very good customer service. Those things don't come cheap, but it does mean that buying one of their planes will give you a fine quality tool that works straight from the box (apart from honing the iron), and carries on working well for many years. If there are any problems, those firms will do their best to put it right. They are most definitely NOT a con.

There's a middle market - Stanley Sweetheart, the better Quangsheng - which will give you almost that level of quality and reliability, but at a lesser price.

Then there are budget models (modern Stanley and Record - despite the price - rather fall in this bracket). Some of these will work perfectly adequately given some fettling - but that presupposes that you know how to set up and fettle a plane. Some are little better than a kit of badly-fitting parts made from indifferent materials and sold with (arguably) some cynicism to unsupecting DIYers who think they're getting a working plane for pennies - they might get one that works, or they might not. Some may argue that that IS a con - would you buy a budget new car and expect it to need rebuilding before it will work?

The secondhand market can be a rich source of good planes, at prices ranging from give-away to significant. You may have to clean it up, you may have to completely rebuild it, you may be lucky to get one that will go straight into service. That applies to both metal and wooden bodied planes.

Some people take great pleasure in rescuing and refurbishing a large collection of secondhand tools. Nothing at all wrong with that. However, if you just want to put together a versatile kit of good tools with which to spend your time working wood, the new premium planes are good value - you get a high performance, reliable tool with the minimum of faffing about - remember, you don't really 'need' many planes; a jack, try, smoother, plough, rebate, router, block and maybe shoulder and you can do pretty well anything except mouldings. If your budget is more restriced, you may prefer 'secondhand and fettle' or middle-range planes.

We are very lucky these days to have such a choice. I started in the mid 1980s before the premium makes came along, and the choice was secondhand (if you could track one down - no internet in those days) or Stanley and Record which were no longer the quality they once were. So give thanks for today's choice and availability!

 

[G S Haydon]

Hi Jinxy

Welcome to the forum. If you are completely new to the world of planes and perhaps woodworking in general I think a "good new" plane is essential. As Jacob alluded to they need very little adjustment to get them working. The lowest point of entry for a "good new" IME is the current Workshop Heaven QS No4. The more expensive types are also very good. From there you might want to experiement with "new cheapies", vintage or buy even more expensive versions. Beyond that you can create excellent work with humble tools such as old Bailey pattern planes or traditional wooden planes. I don't think the more expensive planes are a con at all, just make an informed choice.

 

[tobytools]

Just buy the best tools you can afford, unless you like restoring tools befor using them.
I have older planes that out preform moderns premium planes once tuned, I have woodies id rather use than Bailey planes, end of the day get what you want..

No matter what every woodworker needs a woodie and an infill plane

TT

 

[deema]

When starting out its often very difficult to know if the tool is performing as it should, or your technique needs to be developed. I would recommend buying a no 4 or 4.5 really good plane. You will then have a reference to learn with and also to judge against any other plane you add to your collection. A smoothing plane needs to be really well setup to get the best results, so the investment can only be beneficial. A really excellent plane from one of the top makers will generally keep is value and you won't loose too much if you decide to do something else and sell up.

A no 5 or 5.5 is a jack plane and is used for taking wood down to size. If it planes, it's set up OK. No fineness required.

A no 6, 7 or 8 is used to flatten wood or joint wood. The sole needs to be completely flat, and the blade also needs to be very well setup. This would also make another good candidate for the 'reference' plane. However, they are more expensive than a no 4.

You may want to add a scrub plane. Any old plane such as a no 4, 4.5 or 5 can be easily made into a scrub plane. Spend £1 at a car boot, open up the mouth to the maximum and grind a really big radius on the blade and your good to go.

In summary, for most people, 3 or 4 hand planes is all that is really required. Of these, two are deserving of being the very best you can afford.

From my own experience, I found that unless you buy a really old secondhand plane with original chip breaker and blade, the cheaper new or newer planes all need these replacing. By the time you have added up the price of the plane, a really good chip breaker and iron your getting over the £100 point. If you want to sell up or upgrade you won't get that much of the investment back in the cheap route. If you buy something like a LV or LN, and look after them, they seem to sell for between 80~90% of the purchase price. This makes them a good investment.

 

[bugbear]

When starting out its often very difficult to know if the tool is performing as it should, or your technique needs to be developed.

A friend, teacher, or woodwork show is very helpful here.

I had the luxury of using a Sauer and Steiner plane at a show.

This gave me great confidence.

That any faults in the planing were not down to the tool

BugBear

 

[tobytools]

When starting out its often very difficult to know if the tool is performing as it should, or your technique needs to be developed.

A friend, teacher, or woodwork show is very helpful here.

I had the luxury of using a Sauer and Steiner plane at a show.

This gave me great confidence.

That any faults in the planing were not down to the tool

BugBear

I used a hotly once and I'm positive nothing planes as good as that beast did

TT

 

[Self Taught]

Hi Jinxy, and welcome. As stated by others hand planes are a very useful tool, from prep, to final finish. I started with a Sears Craftsman smoother, about the size of a Stanley Bailey 4 1/2, with a lot of trial and error, and time I have gotten better. I wont rehash what's been said, but from the point of returns on investments, Lee Valley, Veritas, as well as Lie Nielson, will hold as stated at least 85 to 90% of there value. I am in the U.S. so I have no guess what is near you, may be a trade school close by could help with some courses, as well as the folks here. I think everyone knows, but!!, take your time, don't rush, and above all if things start going south, just stop for a bit and regroup!!. Jamey

 

[markturner]

There is no doubt that you do not have to spend a fortune to get a decent plane, especially if you prepared to do some fettling (and perhaps invest in a hock blade or similar.....). But, you will absolutely notice the difference between that and the £400 lie nielsen......I think that every bit as important as how it actually works, is how it looks and feels...quality always shows. I have NEVER come across an expensive tool that did not merit its price. However, I would not buy a Holtey plane, unless I was considerably wealthier, but I can completely see the justification for the price. You cant compare the work of an individual craftsman like Carl Holtey and a factory.

 

[Fatboy]

I recently had my 30yr old Stanley no4 stolen outside a customers house while I was hanging the front door. I replaced it today with a Quangsheng No4 from Workshop Heaven. Cost wise its sits in the middle of the lower end, Stanley, Record etc and the top range Veritas, LN etc. I was very impressed with the way it looked and felt and watched as Matthew took a really fine ribbon off a piece of jacaranda. Its a fine tool, well made and good value in my opinion.

I was very impressed with Workshop Heaven too and came away with a little bit more than I intended to buy!

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Sorry, if your Stanley was only 30 y.o. it's not hard to see why a Q4 was an improvement.

 

[bugbear]

You cant compare the work of an individual craftsman like Carl Holtey and a factory.

There's an interesting difference in the world of top end planes. Some craftsman are very much hand-making artisans (Bill
Carter, Wayne Anderson), with hacksaw, vise and file, achieving quality through care and skill,
whereas Holtey has taken a more modern engineering approach, and achieves quality
though careful design of facilities and machine setup.

Both approaches seem to produce lovely planes

BugBear