Hand Plane setup, sharpening & how to plane properly - in person course

[D_W]

How would you know?No I did not.
I 'admitted' to doing things entirely by hand for a few years at first. Not entirely true I had a band saw and later a little router. You have stupidly interpreted this as my "only" using machines after that.
Enough of this dismal nonsense you are on ignore again. Tedious, I've got more interesting things to do.

So you changed my words - almost entirely - to only.

What's your aim? It's like pulling teeth to get you to show any neat work that you've done mostly or entirely by hand - it's baffling as to why this is the case.

I did a quick search of your old posts - first you worked entirely by hand, now you worked with a bandsaw and a router and also by hand for a few years. I have no idea which one it is.

Then later, you made a statement that metal planes are superior in every way and faster for rough work in wood (which is not something anyone who worked entirely by hand would say), you have no idea how the cap iron works and haven't ever posted anything about it other than follow up after it was a regular topic of discussion and you talk at length about the need for a scrub plane.

None of these match hands on experience doing a lot of hand work. Metal planes are out within weeks other than for smoothing and perhaps match planing for anyone who works on things entirely by hand. The volume of work suffers immediately and you end up landing on long and coarse planes from either continental europe or england (in wood), quickly.

There have been a few people who have tried to work entirely by hand for pay here, and all of them went quickly to wooden planes for everything but smoothing. I would never try to do it for pay, but most of the people working with what is regarded as a complete set of power tools and doing hand work at the end for fitting aren't making anything, either and are relying either on teaching students or having a spouse who pays the bills.

It's a little unusual that you make regular claims, at some interval, you'll later follow with suggestions that I don't make anything or post work (I don't know if this is intentional, maybe it's a reflection of capacity) and most people coming here for information will continue to wonder what you're talking about. I am just a hobbyist trying to find ways to do things efficiently so they're enjoyable, work as an applied mathematician by day, and there's a whole long trail of stuff that I've posted. Doesn't this seem a little backwards?

 

[Sgian Dubh]

The love-in between David and Jacob has, for me, ceased to be entertaining and has become tediously (dare I say it) infantile.

Perhaps both of you should go away for a while, rest your burning hot keyboards for a bit, and cool your foreheads with a succession of damp flannels for a few hours.

I predict you, Jacob, might reply to this with something along the lines of it all being just good knockabout fun. I'm not sure what David might say, if anything. Slainte.

 

[Ttrees]

Just a little video I made some years back whilst playing with the blade relief angle,
And phots of playing around with the throat opening.

View attachment 125473
View attachment 125474
View attachment 125475
View attachment 125476

From the chipbreaker video
View attachment 125477
View attachment 125478
playing with a Supersurfacer

View attachment 125479



one of the double head supersurfacers that i rebuilt

Hello Mark
Was talking to you on the creek before, and you posted some of the above.
Yourself and seemingly Ian from the great down under, both have an opinion in which
contradicting what I have mentioned about not having a fine mouth for use of the cap iron, as IMO it is about the biggest factor of failure to get this to work.
regardless of anything, definitely counterproductive for one who wants to learn,
or skim through the long bits.

I can see a real fine mouth in the corrugated plane above, although the shaving does not demonstrate anything much, which you might agree on.
Now I haven't said that won't work, as you've told me already that you do something else what's a bit mysterious in regards to me, which I won't pretend to know about.

I have yet to be convinced if that (tight mouth)
Lets pretend that a fine mouth has some other great uses, like beveling corners
and not there for any tearout prevention...

Can the plane take unbroken shavings in difficult material at the shaving thickness you are achieving with that light timber that you have shown.
Does the area in front of the mouth get very warm when working this,
Say after 20 mins use or so.

Is there more resistance, I can't help to think that there would be, having had a tight mouth for a good while, too long, it was tough going, and thus I'm skeptical that it wouldn't be a PITA.

And lastly,
What is the reason for having the mouth that tight, I'll bet there is a few reasons,
just hard to find one which isn't concerning tearout.

Cheers
Tom

 

[D_W]

I'm not sure what David might say, if anything. Slainte.

I find it pretty annoying because the commentary is inaccurate, inconsistent and there's no display of anything to provide credibility. But, sometimes I have to remember that almost nobody works mostly or entirely by hand.

The problem with inaccurate and inconsistent or not useful is that someone who is actually looking for something useful can't tell the difference. I had to figure out what I learned more or less in isolation (but I enjoyed it) only to find out it's almost dead identical to nicholson's routines for someone working by hand 6 or 8 years later.

The reason I ended up learning it by hand is because there's only one person I can recall who was actually working this way (others claimed to have wanted to) and that person wasn't very good at communicating what they were doing or proving it.

I'm not a good candidate to tell a beginner how to plane because what I do now is a lot like what nicholson describes, and I doubt most beginners will do much dimensioning by hand because they won't get past the part where it's anything other than routine. I'll leave the beginners who would like to stay beginners to the folks who instruct them, and just the same for power tools (me telling anyone how to use power tools is like most people giving definitive instructions on using or making hand tools).

if 1 out of 200 people who are hobby working actually work mostly or entirely by hand, I'd guess that somewhere around 5 out of 100 would prefer it, but have no way to get accurate information, so they crash through a sellers course or a couple of jacob posts and believe that it's going to be useful and then determine that it's too hard or arduous or inaccurate. That's too bad. I've got nothing for the other 95, though - plenty of other people do.

 

[Adam W.]

The love-in between David and Jacob has, for me, ceased to be entertaining and has become tediously (dare I say it) infantile.

Perhaps both of you should go away for a while, rest your burning hot keyboards for a bit, and cool your foreheads with a succession of damp flannels for a few hours.

I predict you, Jacob, might reply to this with something along the lines of it all being just good knockabout fun. I'm not sure what David might say, if anything. Slainte.

I dunno, I quite enjoy finding out who the people on this forum are and what their actual woodworking background is, especially when they take it upon themselves to feel qualified enough to pass judgement on the quality of other forum members work.

It can be quite revealing in the end to find out that they aren't actually qualified to pass any judgement at all.

Happy new year everyone.

 

[D_W]

It can be quite revealing in the end to find out that they aren't actually qualified to pass any judgement at all.

Happy new year everyone.

From a guy getting a degree in a hobby.

 

[D_W]

For the few who may want to explore hand planing (and generally working mostly by hand), I posted the excerpt from the nicholson book in the hand tools section.

Having made planes and used them heavily, I don't have a great suggestion for being good at using them or understanding them without putting in the time with them (more than absolutely necessary).

 

[hennebury]

Hello Mark
Was talking to you on the creek before, and you posted some of the above.
Yourself and seemingly Ian from the great down under, both have an opinion in which
contradicting what I have mentioned about not having a fine mouth for use of the cap iron, as IMO it is about the biggest factor of failure to get this to work.
regardless of anything, definitely counterproductive for one who wants to learn,
or skim through the long bits.

I can see a real fine mouth in the corrugated plane above, although the shaving does not demonstrate anything much, which you might agree on.
Now I haven't said that won't work, as you've told me already that you do something else what's a bit mysterious in regards to me, which I won't pretend to know about.

I have yet to be convinced if that (tight mouth)
Lets pretend that a fine mouth has some other great uses, like beveling corners
and not there for any tearout prevention...

Can the plane take unbroken shavings in difficult material at the shaving thickness you are achieving with that light timber that you have shown.
Does the area in front of the mouth get very warm when working this,
Say after 20 mins use or so.

Is there more resistance, I can't help to think that there would be, having had a tight mouth for a good while, too long, it was tough going, and thus I'm skeptical that it wouldn't be a PITA.

And lastly,
What is the reason for having the mouth that tight, I'll bet there is a few reasons,
just hard to find one which isn't concerning tearout.

Cheers
Tom

Hi Tom, I made the the video of the plane with zero relieve angle to prove a point, there are always many arguments over handplanes, with people giving "rules" and angles etc... one is about how much relieve angle you "need" so I was just showing that you shouldn't believe everything that you hear. Another is that you cant have a tight throat opening and a close set chipbreaker. So I set my chipbreaker close and my throat opening tight, tight enough so that the shaving is being squeezed through the opening and you can actually lift the front of the plane up by the shaving.
My point is a lot of plane talk is simply wrong.
Planes are not super complicated., and their function follows the rules of nature, not peoples often flawed opinions.
If you want to understand handplanes and handplaning, you should learn to understand the material first. Get a good reference book on wood " Cut and Dried" comes to mind. get a jewelers loupe, go to your workshop and spend a day cutting, smashing, bending, breaking and splitting up wood, examine everything in detail, the weight, the smell, the pore structure, grain direction how it splits and cuts from different angles. Get to know wood. Take a piece of wood and describe every detail of it, it is a good lesson in observation. Then take a sharp chisel and cut the wood everyway that you can think of and examine that. Now you know most of what you will every need to know about cutting wood. Just got to add the chipbreaker learning curve and your all set.

All cutting tools, like plane blades and chisels etc. are wedges. Wedges have a tendency to for things apart. when pushing a handplane the wedging action of the blade splits the wood ahead of the cutting edge causing it to tear the wood before the cutting edge can reach it. The remedies that people have used, are to use
Higher angle blades, this creates more forward pressure and reduces the lifting pressure, but also, is harder to push and doesn't cut quite so nice.
Taking thinner shavings also reduces the tendancy to tear.
Having a low angle blade and a close set chipbeaker, this puts a wall to block the shaving running up the blade, putting pressure on the shaving preventing it from splitting ahead of the cutting edge, long enough for the cutting edge to cut the wood before it splits.
Another way is to have a close throat opening.

You can employ one or more in combination to achieve the best results. All will will create heat from friction.
The thing is to understand, experiment and find what works.

I put the supersurfacers in my post because they work. They work out of the box, no tinkering required.
Handplanes for the most part don't and require tinkering.

Hanplanes and supersurfacers do the same job in the same way, so it doesn't hurt to look at how they do it. You will find there are no opinions in the supersurfacer manual, just tool geometry and setup specs. The specs are very high tolerance and are critical to having the machine function properly.

The take away form this is that all of the cutting action that takes place is affected by minute details at the cutting edge. Tiny changes make a difference to the finish surface.
Planes are not complicated, or don't need to be.
You have to learn a few things and take a day to set up your handplane and that's it, you can use it for the next 50 years, and enjoy using it.

My cheap old Record smoother I bought on a trip to London back in the late 70's. I have used it ever since. I have done a lot of handplaning.
At some point i got tired of the sloppy adjustment's and removed the blade depth knob and blade angle lever , then cut the lever cap, blade and chipbreaker, I reground the chipbreaker, filed the throat opening angled away from the blade, so that the chipbreaker could get up close the the cutting edge without blocking the shavings, and that plane will probably do as good as a $10,000 custom-made plane. You need to be able to make minute accurate adjustments on the fly, and you find find a better or faster way of doing that than a good smack with a small hammer. With a small tap I can adjust the blade depth, angle and chipbreaker setback.
Birdseye Maple and Curly Maple some of which have been baked were all dressed on a supersurfacer. These were samples for a flooring company, that purchased a supersurfacer from me.

For reference, I made mostly furniture, tables and chairs, cabinets, etc..

 

[D_W]

The better Norris planes had a tight mouth and cap iron usability. I would assume that the former went by the wayside because it's a display of quality more than a function.

If you file the inside of a Stanley mouth like an infill and check the cap to make sure it's not too steep, it works fine, but no real function is gained.

The reason we don't suggest people do both with planes isn't because you can't, but rather that they'd need to have the skill to do it well.

 

[Blackswanwood]

@hennebury - that cabinet is beautiful. Are the top and bottom pieces steam bent?

 

[hennebury]

@hennebury - that cabinet is beautiful. Are the top and bottom pieces steam bent?

Thanks, no they are laminated.

 

[hennebury]

The better Norris planes had a tight mouth and cap iron usability. I would assume that the former went by the wayside because it's a display of quality more than a function.

If you file the inside of a Stanley mouth like an infill and check the cap to make sure it's not too steep, it works fine, but no real function is gained.

The reason we don't suggest people do both with planes isn't because you can't, but rather that they'd need to have the skill to do it well.

A reasonably flat sole and file the angle the mouth for better clearance, low curve chipbreaker and a sharp blade, and your good to go.

 

[user 29368]

I suspect the OP hasn't even seen my offer after he was put off by the rest of the stuff. He probably left the forum and sold his tools and taken up fishing, or golf!

Or has flown to Australia to watch the remaining Ashes tests!

Still here. Been busy the last couple of days watching videos, reading posts and the Record plane book.
But clearly not all the posts as I missed your offer, thank you very much!

Spent a few hours today sharpening a couple of planes and making a pile of shavings.
Will post bit more detail tomorrow or Sunday.


Happy new year folks.
Cheers.

 

[D_W]

A reasonably flat sole and file the angle the mouth for better clearance, low curve chipbreaker and a sharp blade, and your good to go.

Yes, that's pretty much the Norris setup.

 

[baldkev]

At some point i got tired of the sloppy adjustment's and removed the blade depth knob and blade angle lever , then cut the lever cap, blade and chipbreaker,

I spotted that and thought "he's got a sawnoff!"


Some great looking work there

 

[Adam W.]

I spotted that and thought "he's got a sawnoff!"


Some great looking work there

I was wondering if it had met the floor at some point.

I really like the look of the shavings from the supersurfacer @hennebury.

 

[hennebury]

I am sure that my plane has hit the floor more than once.
This is a supersurfacer that I modified about 10 or more years ago. it shows the turntable and blade block etc and explains a bit about the operation.
The surface that they produce and the efficiency of these is quite impressive, and the shavings that they produce are quite amazing. It is just an all around great machine to get to use.

The machine below is a bottom cutting machine that I rebuilt 15 years.

 

[baldkev]

How quick is that????

 

[Cabinetman]

Hi Tom, I made the the video of the plane with zero relieve angle to prove a point, there are always many arguments over handplanes, with people giving "rules" and angles etc... one is about how much relieve angle you "need" so I was just showing that you shouldn't believe everything that you hear. Another is that you cant have a tight throat opening and a close set chipbreaker. So I set my chipbreaker close and my throat opening tight, tight enough so that the shaving is being squeezed through the opening and you can actually lift the front of the plane up by the shaving.
My point is a lot of plane talk is simply wrong.
Planes are not super complicated., and their function follows the rules of nature, not peoples often flawed opinions.
If you want to understand handplanes and handplaning, you should learn to understand the material first. Get a good reference book on wood " Cut and Dried" comes to mind. get a jewelers loupe, go to your workshop and spend a day cutting, smashing, bending, breaking and splitting up wood, examine everything in detail, the weight, the smell, the pore structure, grain direction how it splits and cuts from different angles. Get to know wood. Take a piece of wood and describe every detail of it, it is a good lesson in observation. Then take a sharp chisel and cut the wood everyway that you can think of and examine that. Now you know most of what you will every need to know about cutting wood. Just got to add the chipbreaker learning curve and your all set.

All cutting tools, like plane blades and chisels etc. are wedges. Wedges have a tendency to for things apart. when pushing a handplane the wedging action of the blade splits the wood ahead of the cutting edge causing it to tear the wood before the cutting edge can reach it. The remedies that people have used, are to use
Higher angle blades, this creates more forward pressure and reduces the lifting pressure, but also, is harder to push and doesn't cut quite so nice.
Taking thinner shavings also reduces the tendancy to tear.
Having a low angle blade and a close set chipbeaker, this puts a wall to block the shaving running up the blade, putting pressure on the shaving preventing it from splitting ahead of the cutting edge, long enough for the cutting edge to cut the wood before it splits.
Another way is to have a close throat opening.

You can employ one or more in combination to achieve the best results. All will will create heat from friction.
The thing is to understand, experiment and find what works.

I put the supersurfacers in my post because they work. They work out of the box, no tinkering required.
Handplanes for the most part don't and require tinkering.

Hanplanes and supersurfacers do the same job in the same way, so it doesn't hurt to look at how they do it. You will find there are no opinions in the supersurfacer manual, just tool geometry and setup specs. The specs are very high tolerance and are critical to having the machine function properly.

The take away form this is that all of the cutting action that takes place is affected by minute details at the cutting edge. Tiny changes make a difference to the finish surface.
Planes are not complicated, or don't need to be.
You have to learn a few things and take a day to set up your handplane and that's it, you can use it for the next 50 years, and enjoy using it.

My cheap old Record smoother I bought on a trip to London back in the late 70's. I have used it ever since. I have done a lot of handplaning.
At some point i got tired of the sloppy adjustment's and removed the blade depth knob and blade angle lever , then cut the lever cap, blade and chipbreaker, I reground the chipbreaker, filed the throat opening angled away from the blade, so that the chipbreaker could get up close the the cutting edge without blocking the shavings, and that plane will probably do as good as a $10,000 custom-made plane. You need to be able to make minute accurate adjustments on the fly, and you find find a better or faster way of doing that than a good smack with a small hammer. With a small tap I can adjust the blade depth, angle and chipbreaker setback.
Birdseye Maple and Curly Maple some of which have been baked were all dressed on a supersurfacer. These were samples for a flooring company, that purchased a supersurfacer from me.

View attachment 125549
View attachment 125550

For reference, I made mostly furniture, tables and chairs, cabinets, etc..
View attachment 125561View attachment 125562View attachment 125563

Hi Mark, really beautiful work, your description above of the requirements when setting up a hand plane are pretty much exactly my thoughts. Thank you for that, I had dropped out of this discussion as I felt I was beating my head against a brick wall. It seems so simple to me re-the mouth and the cap iron that I get frustrated when people just don’t seem to be able to appreciate how such a simple cutting tool works. Ian

 

[Ttrees]

@hennebury
Obviously we can see some influenced shavings, looks to me like what appears like the cap is as far as possible from the edge, whilst still working with minimum effort.
I question whether it's harder work when an influenced cut is used with a thicker shaving.

Not sure what you might have done to the plane in front of the mouth, but was much more difficult when
I was taking productive shavings, not being aware of whatever it is you do to make it work well.
Not having seen this, but I can see the evidence of influence, nevermind the beautiful work.
I can take your word for it, no need to get photos of thicker even more influenced shavings.

What's your reason for the mouth being so tight?

Cheers
Tom