I don't think this is true (though they may well have been affluent etc). As I understand it they sought to redress an imbalance that they thought the industrial revolution had caused. And I think that ambition survives today in the will to make useful and beautiful things by hand, to have control of products from beginning to end rather than piecework, and saw that as a fundamental value among people - an ambition which i guess is shared by many people on this forum, affluent or otherwise.G S Haydon":2hkaxdrz said:
Hand cut dovetails in sapele
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Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Compare and contrast the Bauhaus - the ideology here being to make beautiful things by whatever means available.Chris152":d9ogboc3 said:
Problems of industrial revolutions are not directly about the nature of work but are about the conditions of work, redundancy and poverty caused by rationalised production, then as now. In other words it's political - the problem being how to ensure that everybody gets the benefit.
G S Haydon
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Jacob, exactly! If possible it always better to level the production and standardise a process if you're ever going to offer a cost effective system. Although we work to standardise where possible no client wants exactly the same thing. That fact is one of the drivers of cost when compared to something that can be modular or standardised.
Custard, I understand my comments could be at best be rude. I'm sorry about that. The slogan you describe is a good one, similar to a cub scout promise or marriage vows. I'm with you about how it works into a full life, without that, life would be poorer (for me at least). However, I'm sure that many people never "make" anything with their own hands and are totally fullfilled. Who am I to judge what people should and should not include in their life to make it worthwhile? I find slogans like that ok but a little patronising at the same time. Plenty of people had that experience before the A&C people became SJW's.
Chris, in that case they missed the biggest open goal in history. Gordon Russel is someone who saw promise within the industrial process. As Jacob has alluded to, if they used the means at hand they could of offered something very special. Art & Craft is I think a slefish thing that rewards the person doing it. I feel that all personal projects, especially those one off itmes made with much hand work, made away (within reason) from the constraints of cost or time are mainly art.
There is an popular culture these days of creating anrachy with a tool box or making basic furniture. When I look at it, it seems an indulgence. If they waned reall arnarchy, perhaps, as Jacob mentioned, make simple, quality work cheap and readily available. Instead it seems to want to charge fees for it's products beyond the means of most.
My kitchen table and chairs at home is rubbish, and I look forward to the day when I can make something better. However it was less than £100.00 and it was something I could afford. I would of needed to put myself into debt to purchase "anarchy" furniture made by a local arts and crafts hipster.
For those needing "self help furniture" take a look at https://www.amazon.co.uk/Nomadic-Furnit ... 039470228X . Some of it is daft but some is brilliant, low cost, honest an quick. https://vimeo.com/74444897 Sadly the video is pretty rubish but it gives some oversight. If I had to do things again, and I needed to furnish a home I would use this book in addition to the local second hand shops.
Custard, I understand my comments could be at best be rude. I'm sorry about that. The slogan you describe is a good one, similar to a cub scout promise or marriage vows. I'm with you about how it works into a full life, without that, life would be poorer (for me at least). However, I'm sure that many people never "make" anything with their own hands and are totally fullfilled. Who am I to judge what people should and should not include in their life to make it worthwhile? I find slogans like that ok but a little patronising at the same time. Plenty of people had that experience before the A&C people became SJW's.
Chris, in that case they missed the biggest open goal in history. Gordon Russel is someone who saw promise within the industrial process. As Jacob has alluded to, if they used the means at hand they could of offered something very special. Art & Craft is I think a slefish thing that rewards the person doing it. I feel that all personal projects, especially those one off itmes made with much hand work, made away (within reason) from the constraints of cost or time are mainly art.
There is an popular culture these days of creating anrachy with a tool box or making basic furniture. When I look at it, it seems an indulgence. If they waned reall arnarchy, perhaps, as Jacob mentioned, make simple, quality work cheap and readily available. Instead it seems to want to charge fees for it's products beyond the means of most.
My kitchen table and chairs at home is rubbish, and I look forward to the day when I can make something better. However it was less than £100.00 and it was something I could afford. I would of needed to put myself into debt to purchase "anarchy" furniture made by a local arts and crafts hipster.
For those needing "self help furniture" take a look at https://www.amazon.co.uk/Nomadic-Furnit ... 039470228X . Some of it is daft but some is brilliant, low cost, honest an quick. https://vimeo.com/74444897 Sadly the video is pretty rubish but it gives some oversight. If I had to do things again, and I needed to furnish a home I would use this book in addition to the local second hand shops.
The business model for all of this is Thos. Moser -- production but has maintained a very high level of quality.
http://www.thosmoser.com/
http://www.thosmoser.com/
woodbrains
Established Member
CStanford":2xruzr7t said:
Hello,
A fine example of a business model that works in the Western world. Unfussy, minimal and made by a team who batch produce and work at stations where tasks are repeated for efficiency. I doubt it was too dissimilar to the Firm, William Morris's company back in the day, or that of Edward Barnsley's shop where Gimson et al worked, very hard and unfussily, because their skill gave them speed. I doubt very much that Graham Haydon will be able to rationalise Moser's prices, though!
Mike.
woodbrains":1tpcqp9r said:
$9,000 for a four drawer bureau. No thanks!
$1,300 for a couple of sticks with homely leather on them, and then a quick link to another chair with exposed finger joints....intentionally exposed. Yuck!
It probably does, however, have the potential to return the original buyer 25% of their purchase price on resale (though they can boast to their friends that they paid 8 times as much for their chest of drawers as one of the other guys down the street), or give them an excuse to yell at their kids about bumping into something.
Pretentious and plain. It's no wonder that fine furniture has so much trouble making a market for itself.
Whose furniture do you like? Living or dead. And who are or were their customers?
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Personally I like it all in a way, though much of it I wouldn't want to live with!CStanford":1t571ujh said:
CStanford":1elwu34v said:
Not a furniture fanatic at all, so I don't have a favorite "who". Early to mid 1800s English, American (Eastern/Northeastern) and French furniture suits as long as it's not painted and doesn't have queen anne legs. Joinery should be nicely done and hidden. If I were to buy a bunch of that stuff, as my relatives have, I would probably buy it used. It is a fifth of the cost or less. I couldn't care less if modern design makers (anything arts and crafts or later) were operating or not.
If I went off of the plane bender and onto a furniture bender, it would be of the styles above - but there are other things I would much rather learn to make than furniture.
woodbrains
Established Member
D_W":1a8gvc3w said:
Hello,
It is fair enough if this furniture is not to your taste, but it is a business model that has worked, and I say again, in the Western world, for 45 years. It has kept craftsmen in employment with the facility to feed their families and not live like impoverished, whinging martyrs. I know the craftsmen work hard, I know there is more batching and repetition than many would hope, but this is exactly the sort of work ethic that Jacob keeps banging on about, as if the furniture makers here were doing something different. And the Arts and Crafts Makers then and now.
By the way, do you not think plain and pretentious is an oxymoron? Not liking this furniture is fine is your taste is different, but please make thought out, reasoned criticisms; you just sound like you are venting bile here, or, more likely, baiting Charles. I couldn't give a fig if you like this or that furniture, or why, I have tried the path of furniture maker, and it is much harder to do than hobbyist wooden plane makers or house joiners might think.
Mike.
Moser is in semi-retirement now (he's in his early 80s) and his son runs the day to day I believe. I understand the company has about 130 employees and has gross revenue in the $25MM to $50MM range, though it's privately held and financial statements are not available. The firm has showrooms in Manhattan, San Francisco, Philadelphia, Washington, D.C., Boston, and at the headquarters in Maine.
His success speaks for itself.
There is some salary data available online. Apparently being a showroom manager is a good job (by most people's standards) as it pays in the high five to low six figures:
https://www.careerbliss.com/thos-moser/salaries/
His success speaks for itself.
There is some salary data available online. Apparently being a showroom manager is a good job (by most people's standards) as it pays in the high five to low six figures:
https://www.careerbliss.com/thos-moser/salaries/
G S Haydon
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Mike, I think their costs are very, very fair. They are producing bespoke art! I'm very much in favour of that approach. Fine, unique work takes time and skill and they should be rewarded based on what the market is prepared to pay. My issue is more when people add in some kind of counter culture drivel or pay lip service to the poor from their positions of comfort.
Whether it is Neoclassical, Arts & Crafts or Hipster the process is all the same as you'll see here
http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O7866 ... g-unknown/
https://www.artuk.org/discover/artworks ... uce-209754
http://www.ntprints.com/image/359481/si ... onal-trust
The core of it is the client wants to feel good, feel part of having something made unique, just for them.
My aside with Jacob is that for sheet utility, of which we I think he and I agree, the process shown in the paintings is foolish. If people require very affordable things an industrial method is required. Being a patron of art is something that should be encouraged if people are able. But some seem to be under the impression that individual hipsters can furnish the masses and then seem shocked that people think a primitive chair they made, priced in multiple hundreds of pounds, has no market. All I say is get real, if you go to a craft joiner, carpenter or furniture maker the process is as outlined in the painting. And that's a good thing!
Whether it is Neoclassical, Arts & Crafts or Hipster the process is all the same as you'll see here
http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O7866 ... g-unknown/
https://www.artuk.org/discover/artworks ... uce-209754
http://www.ntprints.com/image/359481/si ... onal-trust
The core of it is the client wants to feel good, feel part of having something made unique, just for them.
My aside with Jacob is that for sheet utility, of which we I think he and I agree, the process shown in the paintings is foolish. If people require very affordable things an industrial method is required. Being a patron of art is something that should be encouraged if people are able. But some seem to be under the impression that individual hipsters can furnish the masses and then seem shocked that people think a primitive chair they made, priced in multiple hundreds of pounds, has no market. All I say is get real, if you go to a craft joiner, carpenter or furniture maker the process is as outlined in the painting. And that's a good thing!
D_W":3fporp2t said:
What do you want to make in addition to planes?
G S Haydon
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Mike, I totally agree that and artist furniture maker is a much harder path than just about any wood trade. Hat's off to anyone who tries and further, huge respect to those who can make a success of it. Nobody comes to me for individual, free standing furniture. The nearest I get is this.
I feel my point has been lost or I have not conveyed it well. Put simply art furniture, bespoke furniture, is essential and should be celebrated and becoming a patron of a craftsman when possible is a great ting to do. Any kind of unique project is to be welcomed. My point is that's not a way to make quality accessible.
Looking at some of Chippendale's charges he looks far to cheap. Harewood state bed at £250 without uphostery, even in the 1770's was far to low a cost. As I mentioned, if you can make a good living from fine furniture work then great. Dying in near poverty of TB is not ideal.
I feel my point has been lost or I have not conveyed it well. Put simply art furniture, bespoke furniture, is essential and should be celebrated and becoming a patron of a craftsman when possible is a great ting to do. Any kind of unique project is to be welcomed. My point is that's not a way to make quality accessible.
Looking at some of Chippendale's charges he looks far to cheap. Harewood state bed at £250 without uphostery, even in the 1770's was far to low a cost. As I mentioned, if you can make a good living from fine furniture work then great. Dying in near poverty of TB is not ideal.
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Phil Pascoe
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£250 too cheap? Using an inflation calcular it comes out at nearly £42.000 (2016). 
CStanford":1oxwf0v5 said:
Knives, chisels, guitars, straight razors...but each to a standard. My metal planes are not there yet, but certainly they work well enough that I could sell them. They are thus far common, though. Common is not the goal.
Based on your previous posts, if you start to sell these items we're all looking forward to the bargain pricing!
G S Haydon":279gqgjz said:
I agree with your comments, and must say that bathroom work is quite nice, Graham. I'd be pleased if my house had a bath like that.
To quote Warren on the 1700s stuff when Bill tindall was mentioning sapfm pieces made well by amateurs, the shortage isn't of capable makers, it's of buyers.
To extend quality and simple to moderate designs down to people who could afford them but can't otherwise now would be a feat. But such a wish ignores that current society is a strange combination of junk buyers with a rising minimalist class.
CStanford":3a1v7jxl said:
I've made 20 or so wooden planes, given away or sold half for the cost of materials, one charity auctioned and I paid materials and shipping. I don't expect that will change. The cost of materials with the infills will just be more.
woodbrains
Established Member
G S Haydon":4hh7ojmg said:
Hello,
I agree with all of this, except, perhaps that Moser makes art! Looking at the designs, I must say, some of them are actually brilliant. Since Moser's son has taken over the design aspect of the business and made some more contemporary twists on the American classics, I think the inventory is very interesting. His son is a better designer, as it should be, I suppose. But Moser only makes bespoke stuff very infrequently. His business model is a batch produced product from a range, some of which hasn't changed since the 1970's. Nothing wrong with that, of course, but the craftsmen and women do not make decisions or modifications, they make to a set of instructions, so outside the original design, there is no artistic or bespoke elements. It is well made, well designed and priced to pay its craftsmen a living wage, though and find for that.
My pet hate are things ( not just furniture) that pretends to be arty of crafty, but is actually crudely made, poorly conceived tat that seems to the maker to be worth 100 times more that it is worth. I think Krenov referred to that as 'side of the road charm', but these days it seems to have become some sort of cash cow.
Your furniture is nicely done BTW.
Mike.
