Hand cut dovetails in sapele

[Terry - Somerset]

Whilst there are many examples of major advances made independently, the generally accepted wisdom is that cities foster innovation due to the diversity of knowledge, reduced communication barriers (pre-internet), and wider range of skills locally.

Speculating on the pace of industrialisation pre (say) 1900. Sending people or drawings to set things up or resolve queries could easily take months - no telephone, fax, email, aircraft. A lack of associated infrastructure (if you build a steam engine you also need glass for gauges, brass for controls and valves, ability to machine castings etc. Raw materials if not available locally would make almost anything logistically difficult in a mostly sail pre-container age.

It may only be the happy adjacency of coal and iron ore + canals which allowed the industrial revolution to start at all, and specialist suppliers all locally located or on canal networks to provide the diversity of materials and components needed.

 

[Jacob]

.... Sending people or drawings to set things up or resolve queries could easily take months - .....

Days, not months.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail_coach

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stagecoach

 

[Cheshirechappie]

I'm not sure that it's a valid comparison between furniture and industrial products. Before the coming of the canals to some places, and later the railways pretty well everywhere, the latter, by their nature, tended to be close to the source of the raw materials needed for their making; thus, for example, iron where ironstone and wood for charcoal was abundant (hence the Black Country supplying iron to the early makers of Birmingham, the Forest of Dean shipping bar iron and finished products out on the River Severn). Transport, other than by sea and navigable river, was slow and expensive, so bulk raw materials were not moved great distances.

Furniture might be better compared to the other staples of daily life such as bread, brewing and basic tailoring; bakers, brewers and tailors existed pretty well everywhere. The finest tailors were in London, because that's where the great and the good (and the rich) gathered to do business, not least the governance of the realm. Thus, the finest cabinetmakers were in London because that's were those with money (in the 18th century that was the landed classes) spent their wealth. Out in the provinces, furniture was made as needed by local general wood craftsmen, and the sparser the population, the more general and varied their business.

The coming of canals to some extent, but especially railways changed all that, by making the movement of bulk raw materials for industry much easier, and by making the distribution of finished products nationally (and by sea internationally) possible. Thus, mass production became possible because products could be moved cheaply. The Buckinghamshire area would not have become a centre for chair making without an easy and cheap way to move them to buyers across the country.

That reflected in furniture design. The best craftsmanship and latest designs tended to be in London because that's where the market for fine furniture was. Those new ideas spread across the country, but only slowly; country furniture used local timbers and techniques long after they were regarded as out-of-date in London work. The finest imported timber tended to go to the port of London too, because that's where the best price could be had for it.

Thus, I think it's wrong to suggest that furniture fashion and development of techniques came from the country, even if some of the characters grew up there. Chippendale could not have grown his reputation had he stayed in Yorkshire, because the market for fine fashionable furniture didn't exist there. He had to move to London, where the market was - and the rest is history, as they say.

)The same is still true to some extent. The 'big money' still tends to be in London and the Home Counties, so that's where most of the modern Designer-Makers tend to be. )

 

[G S Haydon]

I agree with Jacob on a great deal but I don't share his perspective on furniture design this time. Chippendale was indeed from the North, a Grammar School lad and was a trained joiner. But he moved to London with practical skills and an entrepreneur's mind. Collaboration with Robert Adam, patrons such as Edwin Lascelles and the concept of a Sales Book had nothing to do with vernacular work. Nor was the rise of Neoclassical or Rocco styles or Chinese style work from rural England.
You can see similar things happen with royalty changing over time and the influence of religion.
The Arts & Crafts used a romantic view of what was often a brutal existence, applied methods that created individual works of unique furniture that could only be purchased by the well off. I personally really like so many pieces of Arts and Crafts work but I find the rubbish surrounding it full of guff. William Morris, guff. . Arts and Crafts at work https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNmy5sQYQP4

 

[Jacob]

What I'm saying is that creativity and good design came from all over the place. Classical world, China, the colonies, AND the 'undeveloped' parts of the country and the world.
The arts n crafts movement were dismissive of the 'vernacular' and harked back to a mythical golden age. In many ways they were responsible for the idea that good design is the property of gentry - hence the concept of 'polite architecture'. In turn they blinded us to the design qualities of the vernacular. The modernists recognised this and put 'primitivism' back centre stage.
Of course it's a truism that London fashions predominated in London, then as now, but not everybody would agree that this is by definition the best.
But what I'm saying more than anything - is that anybody who starts looking at 'vernacular' stuff for the first time is in for a surprise due to the often brilliance exuberance and originality of what is there - free of the dead hand of classical or gothic revivalism, the gentrified fashions of the times or obedience to notions of the 'correct' ways of doing things. St Fagans is a good place to start. You find yourself looking at farm implements, cottage and chapel furniture, not chinoiserie, boulle work or boudoir extravagances.

 

[cowfoot]

The arts n crafts movement were dismissive of the 'vernacular' and harked back to a mythical golden age. In many ways they were responsible for the idea that good design is the property of gentry - hence the concept of 'polite architecture'. In turn they blinded us to the design qualities of the vernacular. The modernists recognised this and put 'primitivism' back centre stage.

You've got everything back to front there.
Ruskin, Pugin, Morris et al promoted the vernacular as a counterpoint to mass production.
Modernism promoted the machine age, not primitivism; are you perhaps getting confused with cubism?

 

[G S Haydon]

I think I know where you're coming from Jacob. One thing I like about vernacular styles is they are not "over worked". The best pieces feel direct but well made.

 

[Jacob]

The arts n crafts movement were dismissive of the 'vernacular' and harked back to a mythical golden age. In many ways they were responsible for the idea that good design is the property of gentry - hence the concept of 'polite architecture'. In turn they blinded us to the design qualities of the vernacular. The modernists recognised this and put 'primitivism' back centre stage.

You've got everything back to front there.
Ruskin, Pugin, Morris et al promoted the vernacular as a counterpoint to mass production.
Modernism promoted the machine age, not primitivism; are you perhaps getting confused with cubism?

Ruskin, Pugin, Morris promoted their romantic version of the vernacular which gave birth to the bespoke, artist-craftsman, one-off brigade.
In the meantime there was a strong tradition of 'vernacular' production which would involve mass (or batch) production wherever possible - which is how most stuff was/is always made - it's easily lost sight of - it's a bit like imagining a master baker would only make one loaf at a time.
Modernism in the Bauhaus at least tried to amalgamate at all levels, individual one-off artists, architects, designers and mechanised makers, without discrimination - and it was a brilliant success and still with us very strongly. The bauhaus would have appreciated the strength and vigour of vernacular and it's traditions.
Still with us are the one off artist/craftsmen, still pursuing a romantic ideal, starving in garrets, making stuff inefficiently, desperately struggling to achieve originality, dependent on a tiny market of wealthy people. :roll:

But the threads criss cross over the years - the bauhaus was deeply influenced by arts n crafts but then departed from it in a big way.
I've got two chair books which show this really clearly - one is "500 Chairs" and is almost all slightly tedious post modern arty/decorative stuff, the other is "1000 Chairs" which covers the field and is vastly more interesting (and it's got twice as many chairs in it!)
.

 

[MusicMan]

I am sceptical of the claims that provincial makers used local materials only. Of course they would be used, but national material transport was well established for oak timber. The shipbuilders were on the coast, but the forests were all over. Moreover, English oak was generally reserved for the Navy, as its curved boughs and gnarly structures were suited for shipbuilding, not furniture. The latter was generally made of straight-grained Dutch oak, or "wainscot" hence the term wainscotting. Presumably transport bringing English oak to the ports could bring wainscot back.

Keith

 

[Jacob]

I think I know where you're coming from Jacob. One thing I like about vernacular styles is they are not "over worked". The best pieces feel direct but well made.

Design optimising (and minimising) the use of materials and labour - strictly in accordance with the principles of modernism. This is why the 'vernacular' (and the utilitarian, cheap, practical etc) is so relevant to modern design.
Personally I don't really rate the term 'vernacular' - clearly there are regional tendencies but I don't think they are that distinct - more a question of recognising the styles and influences of particular makers, who will obviously have a geographical location.

 

[Jacob]

I am sceptical of the claims that provincial makers used local materials only. Of course they would be used, but national material transport was well established for oak timber. The shipbuilders were on the coast, but the forests were all over. Moreover, English oak was generally reserved for the Navy, as its curved boughs and gnarly structures were suited for shipbuilding, not furniture. The latter was generally made of straight-grained Dutch oak, or "wainscot" hence the term wainscotting. Presumably transport bringing English oak to the ports could bring wainscot back.

Keith

They certainly would use a lot of locally sourced stuff, but not exclusively. It's a very common set up where timber yards would go out and fell their own stuff and bring it in to be planked up. They still do it in many places - used to do it near me - you could buy locally sourced timber until about 10 years ago. I think they still do a bit but now it's mostly agricultural - gates etc and firewood with what's left over.
Another very old yard now does only imported timber. When I was little you could see them bringing in freshly felled timber. I recall steam traction engines on the job (about 1950).
"The Wheelwrights Shop" is interesting where he describes the transition from locally sourced materials which they'd cut in their own saw pits, to squared sawn stuff brought in by dealers - including 'deal' i.e. imported softwood, 'dele' being an old german name for a board - perhaps nothing to do with 'dealers' as a word.

 

[Corneel]

The Germans still use the word Diele, a thick board of wood as used for flooring for example. Pronunciation is almost the same as Deal with an extra soft e at the end.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

including 'deal' i.e. imported softwood ...

I thought deal originally was a size rather than a type?

 

[Jacob]

including 'deal' i.e. imported softwood ...

I thought deal originally was a size rather than a type?

Dunno there seem to be different definitions. A 'deal' also is used in the dealer sense - i.e. a particular load of various sizes for sale as one deal.

 

[iNewbie]

Look up Scots Pine

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Thinking more about it, it was a size - something like 12" x 4"? Yes, I know what the modern definition is, but I remember reading that it was only deal if it was a certain size.

 

[AndyT]

We had a discussion about battens, deals and planks a while ago, here.

a-historical-question-what-were-hewn-battens-used-for-t86167.html

Some of the images are missing, but this fresh link to a handy book explains what they used to mean - they were the same thickness but different widths.

https://archive.org/stream/everymanhiso ... 0/mode/1up

 

[G S Haydon]

Philip, as you mention, I think deal is about a certain size. In the same way board and plank have certain applications. However, they all get lumped in together. Much the same as joist eg trimmer, trimmed and trimming.

This topic has gone way off, but is still of merit. To touch on Jacob's point about mass making components, there is point were that becomes idiotic in the extreme. Inventory should be kept as low as possible and work flowed through. Amassing piles of inventory is a good way of tying up capital and making a less efficient process.

Lastly, one final dig at the Arts and Crafts brigade. As I mentioned, I really, really like a huge volume of what they made. I rightly or wrongly take away this from their concept. They were basically well off arty types who hated industry and thought they had a cure for all the ills. Reality, they needed wealthy patrons to keep them going. They never served the masses they were so worried about, they only served the well off or themselves. That does not distract from the amazing pieces they made or influence, but it was as selfish as any neoclassical piece ever was.

 

[Jacob]

......
This topic has gone way off, but is still of merit. To touch on Jacob's point about mass making components, there is point were that becomes idiotic in the extreme. Inventory should be kept as low as possible and work flowed through. Amassing piles of inventory is a good way of tying up capital and making a less efficient process.........

Ideally you have a steady controlled rate of production with just enough stock so that any order received will be delivered pronto. Found this out when we were making toys - huge seasonal variations in orders impossible to match without steady production of a stockpile through the quiet bits.

 

[custard]

Lastly, one final dig at the Arts and Crafts brigade.

There are many ways of interpreting the Arts & Crafts movement; politically, philosophically, socially, economically, artistically, and the list goes on.

The way that I choose however, having trained as a furniture maker in the Arts & Craft tradition, is best captured by the CFA Voysey motto of "Head, Hand and Heart".

http://www.artsandcraftsdesign.com/boxe ... d_box.html

What "Head, Hand and Heart" means to me is that a well lived life includes, amongst other things, making things with your own hands and to the very best of your abilities. As simple as that really.