hand cut bridle joint

[Ironballs]

I'm on my hols so the night is young ccasion5:

 

[woodbloke]

I'll see your Laphroaig with a Bishop's Finger and raise you an Old Peculier

Damian - sippers almost gone...probably time for another wee one before the wooden hill - Rob

...or two (days leave tomorrow ) - Rob

 

[Ironballs]

Nice work, blimey, you know when you're drinking OP. Can't cut tight bridles after this stuff :shock:

 

[woodbloke]

ZZZZZZZZZ - Rob... Laphroaig all gone

 

[russ_1380]

Thanks guys

Today I used Japenese saws and the results are getting better.

I'm still researching saw technique as this is what is letting me down on all hand joints, mainly cutting straight and perpendicular (I know these are fundamental).

I think I'm 'thinking' abut my sawing too much, maybe this is what is putting me off a straight line. I do tend to go really slow and stop now and then blow dust out the way and see how I'm doing, maybe this is what is making my kerf line wobble off course.

I will try using a scrap block next to my piece when paring (good tip thanks) and also when sawing vertically.

Any more tips on how to saw straight, it's driving me mad!

Dunbarhlim

What do you mean by a float?

 

[Ironballs]

Make sure your stance is right too, you want to be facing the bench, legs apart to give you good balance, perhaps one foot forward, then arrange your upper body so that your arm moves like a piston across the saw cut. You only want your arm to move, don't grip the saw too tightly, no white knuckles here and let the saw do the work. This is where a brass backed tenon saw can be better than a light Jap saw, the weight of the saw gives you the downward pressure you need and you just concentrate on going backwards and forwards.

Like any job it's about building muscle memory and that only comes from doing something over and over again

 

[matthewwh]

Rather than using a block to guide your saw, try observing the reflection of the timber in the side of the blade. If the reflection is square and level (so it looks as though the wood carries on) then your cut is plumb.

The reflection magnifies any error by a factor of 2 so it is very accurate. You can also use it to estimate angles to within a degree or so, again everything is doubled so when you see a right angle the cut is at 45 degrees.

 

[David C]

Rob,

That is a splendid looking table & joints. If that is a granite top with ammonites showing, what is the straight gold line please?

I think the key phrase is "some fettling with a chisel". I doubt there are many of us who could cut a precise bridle joint straight from the saw.

Robert ingham does use a Zona razor saw, but for dovetails in about 5mm stock.

best wishes,
David Charlesworth

 

[matthewwh]

Reading Ironballs' post reminded of a PM I sent to someone about sawing technique, this was specifically aimed at English backsaw use but the principles are exactly the same for Japanese saws. It may be of use to others too so I'll post it here, apologies if any points are repeated from other people's posts:

Backsaws are unidirectional, they cut straight down with the weight of the back providing all of the downward pressure required for the cut. If you want to cut at an angle, always reposition the timber rather than canting the saw.

Your posture is important. Stand at 45 degrees to the bench with your feet a little over a shoulders width apart. now turn the foot that is closest to the bench outwards so that it aligns with the direction of the cut. Imagine a continuous planar surface, like a big imaginary sheet of card, continuing out from the edges of the saw blade. Your wrist, elbow, shoulder and dominant eye should all be in this plane, lined up with the blade of the saw. Rest your other hand on the top of the workpiece.

Think of the amount of the saw's weight that you are holding as the accelerator pedal. If you are holding all of the weight it is at tickover, if the wood is bearing all of the weight, it is at full throttle. When you start the cut you need to be taking almost all of the weight and just allowing the teeth to gently graze the surface. As the cut becomes established, you can relax your arm slowly, feeding on the power as you allow more and more weight to be borne by the timber. If you are accelerating too fast the saw will judder - equivalent to wheelspin. Never apply any additional downward pressure yourself.

As you start the cut you have about 10 or 12 strokes to determine its direction. After that the saw will be guided by the kerf (the groove you have already cut) any attempt to steer the saw after that will make it bind in the cut. To steer the saw during the first dozen strokes, look at the reflection of the timber in the side of the sawplate. If your wood is horizontal and your saw vertical, then it will appear to continue straight on through the blade. Because it's a mirror image any inaccuracies are doubled, so it's a very accurate way of assessing whether all is square or not. If the wood is canted over at 45 degrees you will see a right angle as long as the saw is plumb, canted at 22.5 you will see a 45 etc.

Having established the cut, try holding the handle of the saw between thumb and forefinger and just pushing it back and forth, it should cut a perfectly straight line. All you are providing is the forward and back motion, the back of the blade is providing the downward pressure and the kerf is doing the steering. Once you are up and going the saw takes care of itself in the vertical and horizontal planes, so the only movement you need to supply is back and forth.

If you still find that the cut is wandering, try cutting three or four kerfs next to each other. If all the cuts show an identical error the problem is with the saw, not your technique. If you are getting inconsistent errors it is a technique issue - this test is the sawing equivalent to getting a grouping of shots when zeroing a rifle.

 

[head clansman]

hi russ

if i may be allowed to offer some advice , razor sharp tools , and practice ,practice ,practice , it's mastering your tools , it will come together in the end . hc

 

[Ironballs]

You should have seen Mk 1 David. Rob invented a new method of finishing

 

[russ_1380]

thanks guys

It's good to see so many fellow woodworkers helping a complete novice.

i can't wait to get back in the shop tomorrow and try a few more of these techniques and get in some more practice.

I'll dig my tenon saw out again and retry that before I write it off for a replacement Japanese saw, it is brand new after all. It is a Garlick one, I believe the same that Axminster stock for around £40.

The best plan for me tomorrow is to just keep cutting lines on scrap pieces and see if my technique is improving.

 

[Ironballs]

I have that saw and there's nothing wrong with it, an excellent tenon saw. Get practising with that one and you'll be fine

 

[Rain426]

I have recently started to get back into woodworking (doing a C&G furniture course at the local college). At the moment we are just using ropey old pieces of pine, resin and knots all over the place.

When I started the course about a month ago, my saw cuts were going at all kinds of weird angles, but after the 3rd week, the cuts have started getting a lot better. I have bought a japanese saw and that really helped, so much so that I can sometimes get away without tidying with a chisel, it leaves such a nice smooth finish.

The joint that I have found hardest by far though is the bridle joint, just trying to work out where the high spots were and making it fit nice and tight was really making my head ache. The tip about chiseling down towards the middle of the joint was a really good one though, I will try that next time I think!

I still have a long way to go, but some of the advice in this thread has been really helpful, thanks for the original post Russ, and thanks everyone else for the advice!

 

[russ_1380]

hi Rain

Welcome to the forum.

It sounds like you and I are in the same boat, albeit you are a few weeks ahead of me. It's reassuring to hear that you have improved.

I'll use this as a motivator mate

Give me a few days and i'll post an update on my improvement

 

[jhwbigley]

It will all come together in the end Russ, don't forget the three pas.

i've been useing tools for years, now i'm learning how to use them proply!

John-Henry

 

[woodbloke]

Rob,

That is a splendid looking table & joints. If that is a granite top with ammonites showing, what is the straight gold line please?

I think the key phrase is "some fettling with a chisel". I doubt there are many of us who could cut a precise bridle joint straight from the saw.

Robert ingham does use a Zona razor saw, but for dovetails in about 5mm stock.

best wishes,
David Charlesworth

David - the top is a fossilized octagonal top and the individual sections are separated with brass strips, the table will soon be in F&C. I also agree about cutting a bridle joint straight from the saw...I think a degree of careful fettling with a chisel is always going to be needed to make the joint fit.
I've had a look at the Zona saws on the Chronos site and they seem very good value for money. I'm contemplating purchasing a couple (at the price they sell them for, it's not worth re-sharpening) to cut finer dovetails for things like trays in jewelry boxes and the like - Rob

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Hi Russ

Here are a couple of tips to saw straight and create a clean joint ..

1. Matthew's suggestion of watching the reflection of the saw is a good one. I use this myself.

2. You will be more likely to cut straight if you are following two dimensions rather than one. That is, cutting on the upper and a side marked lines similtaneously, rather than just the upper line ..

I would start cutting at the joining corner, so I can follow both lines.

3. When marking the lines scribe as deeply as possible, then undercut this with a chisel (from the waste side!) to form a slight fence. Run the saw blade against this fence.


4. I would split most of the waste out with a chisel. To clean up you can use a chisel, a rabbet or a shoulder plane, or my preference .. a router plane (this will ensure that the base is parallel to the top of the stretcher). David Charlesworth does a nice tutorial on this in one of his books.

Marking out ..

Chiseling out (you can make out the saw kerfs) ..

Result ...

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Pekka Huhta]

It is easier to clean up the waste if you don't even try to cut it parallel to the bottom of the joint. I usually cut them so that I cut the area near to the saw cuts first, leaving the center up. This way you get a neat, slicing cut across the grain instead of trying to push straight through. It's also pretty easy to slice off the center if you continue with a bit skewed cut and pare away a bit angled to the grain.

Sawing may be handy sometimes (it also helps to level the bottom of the joint), but in many cases I think it can be easily avoided with this trick.

Pekka

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

It is easier to clean up the waste if you don't even try to cut it parallel to the bottom of the joint.

.... unless you saw a series of kerfs first.

Hi Pekka, if you look closely at the paring I am doing above, you will see the kerfs. Of course, pare to the middle from both sides - not across the total - unless you enjoy breakout

Regards from Perth

Derek