Hancock's Half Hour

[Chris152]

Where did I ever suggest that resources are not finite or that the cost of lockdowns is not horrendous? The fact that our views differ is just that, difference of opinion you're entitled to yours as I am to mine.

I don't think anyone's arguing for either extreme (continued complete lockdown or let it run through the population uninhibited), are they? Both seem to lead to terrible outcomes. The question is how we strike a reasonable balance, what constitutes 'reasonable' and why.
I tend far more toward caution in relation to spread of the disease and waiting to see if we can develop a vaccine and/ or treatments - reopening of the economy should happen in so far as it can be done safely (I think the current situation in England is not achieving that properly, time will tell). If it's not done safely, both the economy and health will suffer again significantly.

 

[rafezetter]

China is a hugely wealthy country so can afford to subsidise food from sources other than direct farming.

I'm sorry, but I have no idea what "indirect farming" might be. Do you mean importing food? But everyone is on lockdown - supply chains are failing. I was reading today about seed potatoes being thrown away, because there is no market: every kilogram of seed potatoes = 20kg or more of produce in the shop after harvest, and many, many tons of seed potatoes are being destroyed. Mountains of meat has been thrown away (animals killed and buried), because the system is broken. But India can just import more food from elsewhere? Phew!

It's also a bit rich a Greek person saying this, who's no doubt benefitted from the govt spending systems which was guarenteed to put it's people in the poor house, but no-one complained at the time because everyone was happy not paying taxes and getting high value pensions paid by the govt.

In what way does financial skullduggery twenty years ago in Greece impact Covid19 lockdown today, worldwide? How about we discuss what the nice epidemiologist says about the cost of lockdown, the necessity of lockdown, and if it might be better taking nuanced, more targeted approach?

By discuss, I mean make an attempt to be nice to each other, and consider the topic at hand.

Give it a whirl - it might be fun. Not agreeing with you does not mean that I want to destroy every thing you stand for. It is not an attack on the very basis of your existence. I just have different ideas about how necessary economic activity is to continued human existence. No biggie.

Did I say "Indirect farming"? No I didn't, that's your interpretation so please don't try to attribute something to me about a statement I did not make you've been such a good chap thus far, no I'm not being facecious. "not direct farming = STOCKPILES. I'm pretty sure *checks*, yes I clarified my statement by saying "food on shelves", whether they be shop shelves or warehouse facilities, or do you think that the western world are the only countries to have stockpiles of food in warehouses?

Ahh see - you know they do, because apparently it's being "destroyed" - maybe have a go at them for destroying good food instead of picking at my bones?

Who's feeding the Indian and Chinese elite? Or the militaries for that matter, where's THAT food coming from eh? Sure as eggs is a form of protein that it's coming from SOMEWHERE, and that there's more than enough to give subsistance rations to those at risk from starvation.

Think if things were that bad the world would just turn its back? Planes do still work you know, the military can airdrop food parcels if it got that bad.

Please don't join the queue of people trying to twist my words for thier own agenda, truth be told your farm sounds idyllic and I've entertained ideas of a visit, I've spent time on a farm before and a day on a farm sounds more appealing than a day in the gym for a fitness regime, not that I imagine you'd agree; I digress.

- Greece - ok where to start - how about "Greeces situation wouldn't be so bad if the Govt had had a bit more humility after the country collapsed". Greece was offered a huge bailout, but instead of learning lessons and accepting things had to change, they didn't, at least not nearly enough to be worth a damn, and actually had the sheer nerve to get snarky at being asked to REPAY the LOAN, which was made extremely clear to them it was a LOAN before they got it, maybe Greece had no intention of repaying it or changing thier way of life and just wanted someone else to pick up the bills, who knows? So here they are in the middle of a serious crisis because their already fragile infrastructure is collapsing again because of the loss of tourism - don't get me wrong, I DO feel for the people, I really do - Greece is a place I've often wanted to go and dive thier waters - but as is oft said, "the people get the govt they choose, one way or another". Greece was in such dire straits when the country collapsed they had the perfect opportunity for MAJOR political and social reform and they CHOSE, directly or indirectly, mostly not to, make of that what you will.

Food is out there, in huge quantities, such that people in western countires are still able to overeat and buy fast food - India is a NATO ally and could ask for food help if it wanted to, and China is so rich what they can't get from asking, they could BUY if they CHOSE TO.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Greece had no intention of repaying it? Greece didn't have snowball's chance in hell of repaying it.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Yup, we're all so wealthy ........
https://www.usdebtclock.org/world-debt-clock.html

 

[rafezetter]

Is rafezetter ranting about nonsense again? :roll: :lol:

I am assuming you have me on ignore - which puts your "he's talking nonsense again" post into a poor light, because everything I wrote was factually correct, which is more than can be said for some of yours. whoops!

Putting people on ignore is fine, but putting them on ignore, then making posts about what they have written based on a second hand interpretaion is foolish, because it opens yourself up for ridicule when making a stupid post that's entirely inaccurate, like now.

But hey-ho - I prefer to know my adversaries movements, it makes it easier to cut them off at the knees when I see them coming.

 

[rafezetter]

Greece had no intention of repaying it? Greece didn't have snowball's chance in hell of repaying it.

C'mon - what did I say? oh yes... no INTENTION.

I have a mate, he owes me a shade over £12,000, yes twelve THOUSAND pounds, so far I've not seen much of it, because of his circumstances, but his INTENTIONS are clear, he fully INTENDS TO REPAY.

His reality is he cannot repay to any great degree - just like Greece's - but my point was that going by how Greece reacted several times I'm not certain even if they had had the ability they would not have done so WILLINGLY and unreservedly.

Just like so many other people with loans large and small, they get the loans then spin it out with minimum payments until they are either FORCED by a court (and sometime not even then) or declare bankruptcy and walk off laughing.

When it comes to money, INTENT and ABILITY are not the same thing Phil as well you know.

I might be misreading the intent of your post, but it comes across as combative.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Ok. I should have quoted "Maybe Greece has no intention of repaying it." Combative? It was merely a statement of fact.

 

[Trainee neophyte]

About Greece: the system collapsed when they had €90 billion of debt, and were unable to borrow more on the open market. Normally, for both businesses and countries, if you can not service your debt, you are declared bankrupt, and you cannot have access to more debt, because which lender would be that stupid? In Greece's case, the ECB would be that stupid. Greece now has €240billion in debt, and is now "fixed". That €240 billion is not in Greece -it went to French, German and Spanish banks. The Greek bailout was actually a eurozone bank failure rescue plan, paid for by 11 million mostly poor people. However, he who controls the narrative controls the thinking, and profligate, greedy Greeks got exactly what they deserved. Who got €150 billion extra is not to be discussed.

 

[Andy Kev.]

About Greece: the system collapsed when they had €90 billion of debt, and were unable to borrow more on the open market. Normally, for both businesses and countries, if you can not service your debt, you are declared bankrupt, and you cannot have access to more debt, because which lender would be that stupid? In Greece's case, the ECB would be that stupid. Greece now has €240billion in debt, and is now "fixed". That €240 billion is not in Greece -it went to French, German and Spanish banks. The Greek bailout was actually a eurozone bank failure rescue plan, paid for by 11 million mostly poor people. However, he who controls the narrative controls the thinking, and profligate, greedy Greeks got exactly what they deserved. Who got €150 billion extra is not to be discussed.

I'm sure that it's hardly controversial to point out that Greece has historically not had much of an economy. Had it been left alone, it would have been fine-(ish). However, it applied for and got EU membership. When it wanted to join the Euro it paid Goldman Sachs to cook the national books so that it looked like the country met the criteria i.e. the Greek govt committed serious fraud. Helmut Kohl was warned by officials that there was no way on earth that Greece could ever be economically fit to join the currency. He heard the advice and declared that politics took precedence over economics. That truly was a serious crime.

Then the inevitable happened. Greece was basically a criminal enterprise in those terms (meaning the system as opposed to the citizenry) with corruption and misuse of public funds being hard wired into the system but the worst criminal of the lot was the EU, principally in the form of Kohl. When the chickens came home to roost, Greece got hammered for its past sins and the more recent sins of Brussels. It certainly wasn't an innocent victim but Brussels showed itself in its true colours.

You're right about the where the money went and that means that European taxpayers picked up the bill for Kohl's political crime. It has however to be borne in mind that sooner or later Greece would have been found out. It just happened sooner because it had lied its way into the single currency. I wonder if there's a Greek playwright around to present the story as the greatest ever Greek Tragedy.

 

[Trainee neophyte]

Did I say "Indirect farming"? No I didn't, that's your interpretation so please don't try to attribute something to me about a statement I did not make you've been such a good chap thus far, no I'm not being facecious. "not direct farming = STOCKPILES.

Thanks for clarifying - I was, I thought, pretty clear that I didn't understand what you meant by "not direct farming", but I apologise unreservedly if you take exception to my wording.

Please don't join the queue of people trying to twist my words for thier own agenda, truth be told your farm sounds idyllic and I've entertained ideas of a visit, I've spent time on a farm before and a day on a farm sounds more appealing than a day in the gym for a fitness regime, not that I imagine you'd agree; I digress.

Wouldn't dream of trying to twist your words - any confusion can be happily attributed to a lack of reading comprehension on my part.

I agree that there is enough food in the world, but it just needs distributing more efficiently. Allegedly free market economics is the most efficient form of conducting business, so as soon as we get some of that, it should all get better.

In the meantime, food is priced as a commodity, not as a manufactured product (I.e. you don't work out your production costs,add a margin for profit, and sell at that price), so the price is controlled by the futures market. Supply shocks will see an increase in prices, regardless of whether or not there are actually shortages. Add to that the astonishing increase in the money supply, and I am very confidant that food will be significantly more expensive soon. I don't foresee empty shelves - Venezuela had plenty of well-stocked supermarkets it was just that no one could afford the food. Only later did producers stop bothering to produce. I don't think things will become as bad as that, but I believe food prices will move up substantially. It's one of those prediction things - I could be completely wrong. We shall have to wait and see.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

In the UK we spend around 8-9% of household income on food at home. Round this up to say 12% to cover food eaten out.

Food is a minor part of total personal spend - we spend (averagely) far more on putting a roof over our heads (mortgage, rent, council tax, utilities) or motoring. Many spend a similar amount on "incidentals" - mobile phone, broadband package, season ticket etc

A lot of food is wasted and for many (including me) significant reductions in cost could be made simply by changing diet slightly.

If food production is impacted by the virus, costs of food may increase. Does it matter in the UK - not much except at the bottom of the eonomic tree.

But it will matter in less fortunate parts of the world where food spending may 30, 40, 50% or more of income - assuming there is an income!

 

[Droogs]

TN your reply to Rafezetter, you said that food needs to be distributed more efficiently, I would argue the case is that food needs to be distributed more effectively. It is the hyper efficiency tunnel vison of the global capitalistic system that makes it so brittle and susceptible to breakdown in times like these. Our modern supply chains really do not have enough slop to take up the slack when needed. This is not just for food but nearly all products and will only get worse as Bezos and his ilk gain more control

 

[Andy Kev.]

This from today's Daily Telegraph might be of interest to TN:

British demand for holiday homes and property in Greece has rocketed by more than 200 per cent following the British Government’s relaxation of travel restrictions, according to local and international real estate officials.

Greece ranked as the hottest search destination in Europe, next to Spain, France, Portugal and Italy, according to data released this week from the UK’s biggest property marketplace, Rightmove.

“Greece is really bouncing back,” Piers Williams, of estate agent Chestertons Ionian, told Telegraph Travel. “Interest has surged by some 200 per cent and it is increasing significantly as the dust continues to settle from the [Covid-19] pandemic.”

 

[Phil Pascoe]

It might of course have gone from one to three.

 

[Rorschach]

Been almost a month now since (most) shops were allowed to re-open, and 6 weeks (ish) since the first of the protest marches plenty of time for a spike in cases to start to show (assuming you believe lockdown was responsible for the fall in cases). Has anyone who spoke out about those events changed their views on them or of lockdown in general?

 

[Andy Kev.]

TN your reply to Rafezetter, you said that food needs to be distributed more efficiently, I would argue the case is that food needs to be distributed more effectively. It is the hyper efficiency tunnel vison of the global capitalistic system that makes it so brittle and susceptible to breakdown in times like these. Our modern supply chains really do not have enough slop to take up the slack when needed. This is not just for food but nearly all products and will only get worse as Bezos and his ilk gain more control

That's an interesting point. IMO the "just enough, just in time" concept has always been an accident waiting to happen and in terms of logistics it can clearly only function under optimal circumstances. It was obviously developed as one more tool on the road to maximising profit. One of the things that baffles me about the business world is the way that many of its corporate practitioners always seem to be easy prey to the latest faddish nonsense.

It seems to lead to managers putting in (fad-driven) systems but doing precious little management. The rise of call centres in far away countries which often led to mutual incomprehension due to accent/dialect differences on the part of the called and the callers springs to mind. Every possible scenario was catered for which was fine until a caller came up with a problem that hadn't been catered for. Then you needed a problem solver with the power to take decisions i.e. some sort of manager but they never seemed to exist, presumably because they were too expensive.

IMO the worst offenders were banks which is odd: why do organisations which make such ridiculous profits need to go in for minor cost saving projects?

The poor old citizen consumer tends to be adrift between the global capitalists you mention at one extreme and statist politicians who interefere far too much in real life at the other. The world would be much better if we could just turn down the drive for profits and the mania for governance at the same time. In other words, do away with both the neocons and the hard left.

 

[RogerS]

.....
.... Every possible scenario was catered for which was fine until a caller came up with a problem that hadn't been catered for. Then you needed a problem solver with the power to take decisions i.e. some sort of manager but they never seemed to exist, presumably because they were too expensive.
.....

They put in scripts that the call-handler has to follow. Very, very little room for them to manoeuvre or go outside that script. So if you have a problem that is outside the script (as you mention) then that is a problem. Compounded by cultural issues...which is why many call-handlers don't want to pass you onto a manager because in their culture, they never like to say No. And/or they will lose face. And/or will lose a bonus/affect their prospects etc. If you are lucky and end up with a call-handler who has been their a long time and knows little ways around the 'system' then you're very lucky. But if you are unlucky and get an anal-retentive then easiest to ring off and try later.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Yes. I had a problem with the electricity supplier. I had a new meter fitted a few weeks before changing over, and hadn't read the (Eco 7) meter before - inadvertently I had reversed two figures. There's a 1/ a 2/ and a 3/ . The 3/ is the total of the first two, which is for a normal reading. The new meter has a dial you need a bl00dy magnifying glass to read in perfect light (why???). I sent photographs when the problem first arose (it couldn't have been beyond them to see what had happened - any reading could easily be found out given the other two), and it wasn't sorted out until I got hold of a supervisor after several weeks, refusing to speak to them any longer on the phone and saying I would communicate only be email. When I got hold of her, she just looked at the emails and said sorry, I can see what's happened, I'll amend the figures.
Simple as that.

 

[Just4Fun]

They put in scripts that the call-handler has to follow. Very, very little room for them to manoeuvre or go outside that script. So if you have a problem that is outside the script (as you mention) then that is a problem.

Reminds me of the story (true or not I don't know) about the guy who rang his bank and got a call center in India. He asked to be put through to his local branch. They replied they could do everything from the call center. He insisted he wanted to speak to the local branch and in the end they got the call center manager to deal with him. The manager asked "What do you think the local branch can do that we can't?". The customer replied that he had lost his spectacles and wondered if he had left them on the counter when he was in the branch that morning!

 

[Trainee neophyte]

I spent an hour on the telephone yesterday, talking to a succession of effusively polite ladies in Hyderabad. Due to Coronavirus®© they were all working from home, which made for some interesting background sound effects. I also multi-tasked by barbecuing sausages and posting comments here at the same time - I like a challenge, but anything I wrote yesterday may be even more incoherent than usual.

We got it all sorted in the end, I think. The sausages were excellent.