Guns,guns, and more Guns

[D_W]

gangs and drug stuff are a problem. How much? I don't know. I think the 80s and 90s thing to scare people was the idea that crazed drug zombies would be running around with guns, but the reality is that the shooters are turf guarders (distribution level above users).

The gang culture is rampant in prison (some originates in prison, but a lot of it is aggregation of gangs in prison so that members know if they get locked up, they'll still be with the gang when they're in prison and be protected).

The decline in crime that occurred in the 90s to a decade later was tied mostly to increased arrests. In the areas where the crime is a problem, it doesn't appear to be that easy to make arrests (nobody knows anything for various reasons - none of them because they don't actually know anything, but perhaps because they wouldn't dare testify, and in other cases, they're not going to help the police even if they got shot). I have no clue how you make a dent in that. 10 miles from here is a completely different culture - 10 miles from there and it's again like here. How does that happen? When did people give up on it?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime...edia/File:US_incarceration_timeline-clean.svg
Maybe overall, we haven't. If there isn't an economic reason behind at least half of the shootings (like protecting drug territory), I'd be surprised. That chart seems to suggest that a big reason for the decline is incarceration, but having almost a percent of the population in prison or jail is boggling.

 

[Trainee neophyte]

Not really

2018
Wilful, malicious, accidental 14,800
Suicide 24,400

Yes. Really.

Of your 14,800, three quarters are gang/drug related, as per the article I linked.

Show me half of all suicides will magically be prevented just because the gun has been removed and I will be delighted to accept your point. Until then, I will assume that anyone sufficiently motivated to kill themselves with a gun will be motivated to find more creative methods. It's not as if the USA doesn't have more prescription antidepressant drugs prescribed than any other nation. Oooh - is that another correlation?

Correlation is not causation, as I am sure you know.

 

[RobinBHM]

Yes. Really.

Of your 14,800, three quarters are gang/drug related, as per the article I linked.

Show me half of all suicides will magically be prevented just because the gun has been removed and I will be delighted to accept your point. Until then, I will assume that anyone sufficiently motivated to kill themselves with a gun will be motivated to find more creative methods. It's not as if the USA doesn't have more prescription antidepressant drugs prescribed than any other nation. Oooh - is that another correlation?

Correlation is not causation, as I am sure you know.

No

You said 75% of gun deaths are suicide.

That is untrue, the figures state that.

In any case, in all my discussions I have ignored the suicides and only talk about the 15,000 homicides

 

[RobinBHM]

Of your 14,800, three quarters are gang/drug related, as per the article I linked

Incorrect

"The National Gang Center estimated that from 2007 through 2012, 13% of U.S. homicides were gang-related"
https://www.politifact.com/factchec...st-murders-gangbangers-killing-gangbangers-v/

 

[Reginald]

Education should be the first, then immediate suspension from armed duty, so clerical only, for a minimum time for anyone who discharges their weapon or is with another officer who does, going up on a sliding scale depending on the injuries (if any) to anyone in the vicinity of the shooting, with automatic expulsion from all police forces if there is a death unless a full judicial trial decides that the shooting was the only possible answer.

It is perfectly possible to have a country with armed police who almost never use their guns both with an armed population (Canada as many or more guns per head than USA) and without (Japan) to give a couple of examples

It's interesting that Canada with a lot of guns have far less killings per head than the USA and the most heavily armed country in the world has almost zero is i

Owning a bottle of vodka doesn't give me an opportunity to shoot up a school.

Sure, alcohol does kill more people, like cigarettes kill more people. I'd not really be all that bothered if both were outright banned but the reality is we know prohibition doesn't work on boose and ****.

Making it hard or impossible for someone to have a military grade assault rifle at home should not be a contentious issue when the 2nd ammendment was written at a time where the most advanced gun was a single shot rifle.

the term military grade assault rifle is always trotted out AR does not mean assault rifle it means armourlite rifle.
people with a predispossition to violence are more likely to do so with vodka.
interesting that the european country with the most guns (switzerland) has no gun related problems.
its easy to legislate against law abiding people who by nature obey the law (of the land an decency) but you can't legislate and expect nutters and criminals to give a hoot.
there is no easy answer to these questions but what is for shure is that governments generally only ever remove rights not give them so the constant erosion of long held things are a worry.
like i said looneys and criminals dont care so we need to find a way to deal with that.

 

[RobinBHM]

It's interesting that Canada with a lot of guns have far less killings per head than the USA

Canada does have far stricter gun control laws.

european country with the most guns (switzerland) has no gun related problems

Switzerland has strict gun control laws.

It would be interesting to look at the details of what gun control measures these 2 countries have, because as you say, they both have fairly high gun ownership.

We know America has lax gun control measures, it has a powerful gun lobby that influences government.

 

[RobinBHM]

gangs and drug stuff are a problem. How much? I don't know

A major problem in terms of crime, but not that high on gun homicides as far as I can tell

• The total number of gang homicides reported by respondents in the NYGS sample averaged nearly 2,000 annually from 2007 to 2012. During roughly the same time period (2007 to 2011), the FBI estimated, on average, more than 15,500 homicides across the United States (www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-1). These estimates suggest that gang-related homicides typically accounted for around 13 percent of all homicides annually.
• Highly populated areas accounted for the vast majority of gang homicides: nearly 67 percent occurred in cities with populations over 100,000, and 17 percent occurred in suburban counties in 2012.

 

[RobinBHM]

Both, I believe true, but can you say one causes the other

Well yes, I can.

73% of all homicides are because of guns in USA.

USA has far higher gun ownership thannpretty much any other country.

If you compare gun controls in countries with fairly high gun ownership to America, you will find those countries have strict gun controls, butvAmerica does not.

I agree gun ownership alone is not the causation of gun deaths, but combine it with Americas lax gun control and a powerful lobby stopping change....there's your problem.

 

[RobinBHM]

You've stooped to labeling my comments as NRA arguments - absurd

They bear similarities, do you disagree?

 

[RobinBHM]

It's a crisis to you because you're absolutely obsessed with relatives

It is a crisis.

Do you not think 15000 deaths a year from guns is a crisis.

 

[Reginald]

Canada does have far stricter gun control laws.


Switzerland has strict gun control laws.

It would be interesting to look at the details of what gun control measures these 2 countries have, because as you say, they both have fairly high gun ownership.

We know America has lax gun control measures, it has a powerful gun lobby that influences government.

Switzerland has a full on millitary grade assault rifle in almost every building it is a truth that all swiss do military time and all keep their guns at home the government want it that way and supply all the ammo as well.
If some idiot ran amok in switzerland I think they would be stopped pretty quickly.
as for canada they have a different cultural outlook to america if you look at border towns the crime levels in the us side are a lot higher than the canadian side the big difference between canada and the usa is handguns.

 

[artie]

Well yes, I can.

73% of all homicides are because of guns in USA.

USA has far higher gun ownership thannpretty much any other country.

If you compare gun controls in countries with fairly high gun ownership to America, you will find those countries have strict gun controls, butvAmerica does not.

I agree gun ownership alone is not the causation of gun deaths, but combine it with Americas lax gun control and a powerful lobby stopping change....there's your problem.

Well yes you can say it, but it's not true and because you persist with this lie it makes further discussion with you pointless.

 

[RobinBHM]

Well yes you can say it, but it's not true and because you persist with this lie it makes further discussion with you pointless.

America has very high levels of gun ownership and very lax gun controls.
That is the reason for high levels of gun violence in America.

The reason we know this is because of data from many other countries.

the real reason you don't want to continue the discussion is because you have no counter argument.

 

[Louie10]

I think you'll find police in the UK, especially London have been armed since the invention of the gun. And as to routinly, this appears to only be when the Royalty or members of government are about, as threats come from those who are sometimes on the suffering end of British foreign policy.

The threat is unfortunately now against the ordinary people we have sadly watched ordinary people caught up in shootings and attacks so it's good policing to have the Police carry weapons to protect unarmed citizens. I understand the left hate such an idea but responsible people have placed into the hands of the Police and others the powers to both protect our society against the evils of terrorism.

 

[Jacob]

The threat is unfortunately now against the ordinary people we have sadly watched ordinary people caught up in shootings and attacks so it's good policing to have the Police carry weapons to protect unarmed citizens. I understand the left hate such an idea but responsible people have placed into the hands of the Police and others the powers to both protect our society against the evils of terrorism.

Gun crime is very low in UK Firearm Crime Statistics: England & Wales - House of Commons Library and there is no case for having the police more armed. It's not a left wing issue at all, that's a really stupid idea
The most recent data suggests that there were 30 homicides committed by shooting in the year ending 31 March 2020 – 4% of all homicides. Of these 30 victims, 20% were female and 80% were male.

 

[artie]

responsible people have placed into the hands of the Police and others the powers to both protect our society

Only problem being, when someone points a gun at you, it's a trifle late to dial 999.

 

[D_W]

Gun crime is very low in UK Firearm Crime Statistics: England & Wales - House of Commons Library and there is no case for having the police more armed. It's not a left wing issue at all, that's a really stupid idea
The most recent data suggests that there were 30 homicides committed by shooting in the year ending 31 March 2020 – 4% of all homicides. Of these 30 victims, 20% were female and 80% were male.

How many of those 30 homicides were police shooting someone? What's the evidence for not having the police armed?

https://assets.publishing.service.g...chment_data/file/817742/hosb1119-assaults.pdf
10,400 assaults on police resulting in injury. Yeah, ghee, no reason for them to be able to protect themselves.

 

[RobinBHM]

Only problem being, when someone points a gun at you, it's a trifle late to dial 999.

Which is why we have tough gun laws…..minimising chance of that happening.

 

[RobinBHM]

How many of those 30 homicides were police shooting someone? What's the evidence for not having the police armed?

https://assets.publishing.service.g...chment_data/file/817742/hosb1119-assaults.pdf
10,400 assaults on police resulting in injury. Yeah, ghee, no reason for them to be able to protect themselves.

that’s not an argument for arming police with guns

 

[Spectric]

The days of Dixon of dock green are long gone, the days when you had more bobbies on the beat than sitting in a car or behind a desk and they were the front line. They knew their beat and the people, they would be in a position to curb criminal activity before it got big time. Now they are distant from the community, weighed down by bureaucracy and paperwork whilst facing an onslaught from the drug gangs who almost rule the streets. Now add to this the politicaly correct brigade and wokyism and they are setup to fail, whatever they do or say will be wrong in someones view yet people complain they are not making our streets safe. Then to add insult to injury you have our system of locking them up in Butlins camps where they can get further education and when released are even more hardened to a life of crime. If you are faced by someone with a gun, a trucheon is as good as a feather duster, they should just be allowed to take them out, this addresses the issue of re-offending and ongoing expense to the tax payer as well as setting an example to others who may be thinking of carrying a weapon. As for drugs, why not get the users to solve the issue for you, instead of just seizing drugs from ports and raids poison it and put it back into the system, now when a user shows signs of this poisoning they need to handover a dealer in exchange for medical help.