Guaranteeing building work - how long?

[david.tamlaght]

The reason behind my original post was that the nephew of one of my mates (simple sole trader) laid a large 200 slab patio (Indian stone) 14 months ago and he has been called back to relay 3 ‘loose’ slabs (3 visits, one slab per visit)…..he’s always gone back to put them right BUT at what point in time should he say enough is enough? He can’t guarantee them for life but ‘when‘ is an appropriate cut-off point?

In the group we also all had stories where work had been satisfactorily completed and agreed but the client had simply refused to pay (carpenter hung a new door and lady just said “I’m not paying”)……he had to take it on the chin as it was not worth the hassle or expense of getting legal.

I'd say your mate maybe failed to properly prepare the site ,150 min of well consolidated hardcore but ensuring all topsoill removed first ,40mm layer of sand ,again compacted with a plate and then screeded off to a flat plane .The indian stone you refer to though has an uneven rear side and really needed to be set in a sand / cement screed .
i recently had a guy who said tramping 2" of sand with his feet and screeding off was sufficent
He was working direct to a client i had built an extension for so no issue with me but needless to say,6 months on a lot of the 450mm flags are now rocking/joints cracked etc .
take shortcuts ,get poor results .
On the time thing,if you do the job properly ,you won't need to worry about a guarantee period .
The problem is some people don't want the expense of digging out,hardcore,cement screed etc and then the worker gets the blame when it goes belly up down the line .
If a client doesn't want to pay to get the job done properly,let someone else do it would be my advice

 

[J-G]

The reason behind my original post was that the nephew of one of my mates (simple sole trader) laid a large 200 slab patio (Indian stone) 14 months ago and he has been called back to relay 3 ‘loose’ slabs (3 visits, one slab per visit)…..he’s always gone back to put them right BUT at what point in time should he say enough is enough? He can’t guarantee them for life but ‘when‘ is an appropriate cut-off point?

In the group we also all had stories where work had been satisfactorily completed and agreed but the client had simply refused to pay (carpenter hung a new door and lady just said “I’m not paying”)……he had to take it on the chin as it was not worth the hassle or expense of getting legal.

??? Why did he not just remove the door then ? I'm assuming that the client refused to pay upon 'completion' - so he would still be on site. It would need quick thinking though!

 

[johna.clements]

??? Why did he not just remove the door then ? I'm assuming that the client refused to pay upon 'completion' - so he would still be on site. It would need quick thinking though!

Once the door is fixed it becomes part of the house. removing it could be construded as criminal damage etc.

 

[Pedronicus]

Once the door is fixed it becomes part of the house. removing it could be construded as criminal damage etc.

Exactly. The same reason why you can't go ripping an item out if the client hasn't paid without the help of a Court Order.

 

[Lard]

I am an engineer not a solicitor but I think warranties are slightly different to guarantees. Warranties normally involve some sort of payment or insurance or bond. You could just guarantee, promise that extends legal rights , that you will make repairs for three years or you take out a warranty; insurance or lodge a bond that will pay the client if you do not repair. With a warranties you will charge more because of the cost but they have more protection especially if you stop trading. That is my understanding and it may not be quite correct.

A proper guarantee is normally for more than your legal rights! It is expected that the ground will move therefore the odd slab starting to rock after a year is unlikely to be covered by legal rights. If you give a guarantee that the slabs will not rock for three years you extend their legal rights. If you just guarantee that you will do a good job then it is largely meaningless as leagal you are supposed to do a good job (merchantable quality).

Yes, my bad, I meant guarantee

 

[Lard]

I'd say your mate maybe failed to properly prepare the site ,150 min of well consolidated hardcore but ensuring all topsoill removed first ,40mm layer of sand ,again compacted with a plate and then screeded off to a flat plane .The indian stone you refer to though has an uneven rear side and really needed to be set in a sand / cement screed .
i recently had a guy who said tramping 2" of sand with his feet and screeding off was sufficent
He was working direct to a client i had built an extension for so no issue with me but needless to say,6 months on a lot of the 450mm flags are now rocking/joints cracked etc .
take shortcuts ,get poor results .
On the time thing,if you do the job properly ,you won't need to worry about a guarantee period .
The problem is some people don't want the expense of digging out,hardcore,cement screed etc and then the worker gets the blame when it goes belly up down the line .
If a client doesn't want to pay to get the job done properly,let someone else do it would be my advice

Yes, I take your point but he is experienced enough and has done this type of work many times previous.

I may not have described it properly but the 3-odd loose slabs are part of an approx 200 slab area. In other words approx 190+ are all fine.

 

[Lard]

No need to guarantee anything at all. If something does go wrong consider each case on it's merits.

Yes, ok, I do see your point - we all know odd-jobbers who do exactly as you suggest….I’ve used enough of them myself.

I would hazard an educated guess that the nephew is exactly the same and so never actually ‘offers’ any guarantees as I doubt very little will have been in writing.

BUT (and this is where my professional knowledge and experience isn’t helping) legally there is a contract, albeit with completely implied terms and so he has, quite rightly, returned and put right anything that was not correct.

However, it has now got to a situation where both parties are now disagreeing and the client is now seeking recompense that is, in everyone’s opinion, unreasonable to the point of being malicious.

 

[MikeJhn]

Exactly. The same reason why you can't go ripping an item out if the client hasn't paid without the help of a Court Order.

All accords who supplied the door, does not become the property of the house owner until paid for.

 

[david.tamlaght]

Yes, I take your point but he is experienced enough and has done this type of work many times previous.

I may not have described it properly but the 3-odd loose slabs are part of an approx 200 slab area. In other words approx 190+ are all fine.

probably just a wee bit of settlement here and there .the size of the plate base will roughshood over any small soft spot and can't really be helped.
not worth argueing with a customer over though and a quick job to rebed them .
i d tend to tell them to let it settle for a bit longer and then fix whatever ones are rocking at the one time further down the line.
grouting those indian slabs is a pain also.
i have a bit in my own garden .sand/cement joints lasted 2 years,did it with the resin based grout 3 years ago and needs done now again.no easy fix as i doesn't bond well to the natural stone .

 

[baldkev]

All accords who supplied the door, does not become the property of the house owner until paid for.

Years ago i worked for a company that did emergency glazing. We got called out to replace a pane in a sash window. Customer was a solicitor......
All went well but she didnt pay the bill. After a few weeks the boss phoned her and she said she had forwarded the bill to the landlady who was refusing to pay.
As she was the one who instructed us, she was liable for the bill. She still refused. My boss went to the n.h.b.c legal helpline and during the call he said he was going to go back and remove the glass. They said that would be illegal because it has been incorporated into the building and is legally no longer his property.

In the end he sent a letter saying he was going to report her for her actions to the regulatory body for solicitors ( cant remember the term from back then ) and she finally paid up

 

[Blackswanwood]

Yes, ok, I do see your point - we all know odd-jobbers who do exactly as you suggest….I’ve used enough of them myself.

I would hazard an educated guess that the nephew is exactly the same and so never actually ‘offers’ any guarantees as I doubt very little will have been in writing.

BUT (and this is where my professional knowledge and experience isn’t helping) legally there is a contract, albeit with completely implied terms and so he has, quite rightly, returned and put right anything that was not correct.

However, it has now got to a situation where both parties are now disagreeing and the client is now seeking recompense that is, in everyone’s opinion, unreasonable to the point of being malicious.

In the absence of a contract that sets out an alternative basis of guarantee etc the relevant legislation is the Consumer Rights Act which replaced The Supply of Goods And Services Act in 2015.

The fundamental point is whether the contractor used reasonable care and skill in doing the work. If they did there is no liability on the contractor whereas if they didn’t they need make good the faulty work.

It sounds like they did in this case as over time most paving will move a bit and needs a bit of ongoing maintenance. It therefore comes down to whether there is any value (monetary or feelgood) in the relationship with the client.

It’s worth adding that a contract with a consumer can clarify and extend a guarantee of workmanship but that doesn’t mean it can arbitrarily restrict the provisions of the Consumer Rights Act.

 

[johna.clements]

All accords who supplied the door, does not become the property of the house owner until paid for.

Sadly you are wrong. You can not remove bits of a house for wilful non payment.

 

[MikeJhn]

Sadly you are wrong. You can not remove bits of a house for wilful non payment.

Nope under the JCT 80 form of contract the item does not become the property of hose owner until paid for, getting access to remove the item is another matter and would need a court order.

 

[Lard]

Nope under the JCT 80 form of contract the item does not become the property of hose owner until paid for, getting access to remove the item is another matter and would need a court order.

That has reminded me.

Here’s an example of a curve ball that I used to throw at my students for them to ponder/argue over. Always a good one to start a discussion…..

At some point Fred Bloggs (a builder’s merchant) delivered a number of doors to site for A.Chippie Ltd (the subcontractor who ordered them).

A.Chippie Ltd is subcontracted for all carpentry work to BigBuildersLtd (the main contractor).

BigBuilders won the tender to build houses for MrBoss, the client.

MrBoss certified and paid BigBuilder’s last valuation that included the value of the unfixed doors as ‘materials on site’.

BigBuilders, who are yet to pay A.Chippie, have just gone into administration.

Fred Bloggs turns up to site to re-collect ’their’ doors as they have not been paid, but are refused entry as the site has been locked.

Who owns the doors?

 

[david.tamlaght]

That has reminded me.

Here’s an example of a curve ball that I used to throw at my students for them to ponder/argue over. Always a good one to start a discussion…..

At some point Fred Bloggs (a builder’s merchant) delivered a number of doors to site for A.Chippie Ltd (the subcontractor who ordered them).

A.Chippie Ltd is subcontracted for all carpentry work to BigBuildersLtd (the main contractor).

BigBuilders won the tender to build houses for MrBoss, the client.

MrBoss certified and paid BigBuilder’s last valuation that included the value of the unfixed doors as ‘materials on site’.

BigBuilders, who are yet to pay A.Chippie, have just gone into administration.

Fred Bloggs turns up to site to re-collect ’their’ doors as they have not been paid, but are refused entry as the site has been locked.

Who owns the doors?

I think it would depend on if they were actually installed or just sitting as stock on site.
most suppliers have terms that state the goods remain their property until paid for so would belong to the supplier although getting access to retrieve them could be an issue.
if A chippie had actually fitted them,they'd then be part of the dwelling and as such no one has the right to remove them,certainly not without court approval.
who would foot the loss though?
probably whoever actually placed the order with the supplier
that would be my take on it but i'm probably totally wrong as usual

 

[baldkev]

Mr boss owns the doors.
Big builders liquidation settlement owes the chippy, the chippy owes fred bloggs. Fred doesnt care if big builder has paid or not, the chippie has the debt with fred.

 

[baldkev]

When i was a lot younger i got caught on a kitchen fit. I had plenty of money in the bank ( single and worked a lot ) and at the end of each month I'd pay my suppliers. I did a kitchen supply and fit.... it took months to get the money as the woman in question didnt have any! She got me to do the kitchen, then it turned out she was trying to get a loan to pay for it, but she had bad credit history.

It was my slip up. From then on, any jobs that required a reasonable outlay in materials had to have materials paid on or before delivery. Fitting doesnt start if it isnt paid for.

 

[johna.clements]

Nope under the JCT 80 form of contract the item does not become the property of hose owner until paid for, getting access to remove the item is another matter and would need a court order.

As was previously posted my highlight

"In the UK even small works can be covered by the "JCT80 Small works" form of contract"

Can does not me will.

A carpenter going to a house and fitting one door is very unlikely to be covered by a standard form of contract. It is likely that there will only be a verbal contract.

From JCT

https://www.jctltd.co.uk/product/minor-works-building-contract

• ""The employer must provide drawings, a specification, or work schedules to define the quantity and quality of work.
• The price and payment structure of the contract is based on a lump sum with monthly interim payments.
• Provisions are included for collaborative working and sustainability.
• For use on both private and public sector projects.
• It contains the guidance notes.
• This contract can be used with the Framework Agreement (FA).
• For use on both private and public sector projects.
• Download contents page (PDF 43KB)""

Copy of contract to sign only £74.00 + VAT

How do you think a domestic customer will react to being asked to provide a drawing etc to the carpenter so that they can supply and hang one door. And can you sign this legal document that bumps up the price that they have never heard of.

Here is my statement again with amendment in highlight. Most works done to domestic property are very minor.

Sadly you are wrong in most cases. You can not remove bits of a house for wilful non payment.

 

[Pineapple]

Years ago i worked for a company that did emergency glazing. We got called out to replace a pane in a sash window. Customer was a solicitor......
All went well but she didnt pay the bill. After a few weeks the boss phoned her and she said she had forwarded the bill to the landlady who was refusing to pay.
As she was the one who instructed us, she was liable for the bill. She still refused. My boss went to the n.h.b.c legal helpline and during the call he said he was going to go back and remove the glass. They said that would be illegal because it has been incorporated into the building and is legally no longer his property.

In the end he sent a letter saying he was going to report her for her actions to the regulatory body for solicitors ( cant remember the term from back then ) and she finally paid up

I Googled = The Law Society/ Complain about a solicitor