Green Hue appearing on freshly ripped holly

[Random Orbital Bob]

Oh good...so there is hope then
The idea (Musicman) that the fungus pre-existed in the trunk and simply flared up green on exposure to air could be right I guess.

Of one thing I have no doubt and Terry, you've just confirmed it observationally, the catalyst is exposure to the air. That's why the end grain isn't showing green because it was already pre-cut. Only the freshly cut faces are going green. It's almost tempting to believe the actual sap itself is green and what we're seeing is the sap bleeding slowly from the cut surface. Terry...any chance of uploading a piccy or two for the sake of having a more complete record of this for future reference for the forum?

Thanks

 

[Wizard9999]

Thanks Beau, apologies, had missed your earlier post

Will load pictures up later today, though the ones taken yesterday did not really show it that well. Will revive this thread later when wood is planed to see if it does work out OK.

Terry.

 

[MIGNAL]

I suppose you could try phoning David **** or the chap at Timberline. They both supply the Whitest of holly to musical instrument makers who use it as a substitute for Ivory. They may not know what causes it but I'm pretty sure they'll know the best way of processing Holly from the tree.
The wood bleach might work but it's unlikely to go very deep into the wood. I only use very thin sawn veneers of Holly but it has to be very white indeed.
The other thought is that there is something reacting with the metal of the cutting blade. Seems a bit far fetched but who knows. I use quite a few solutions such as ferrous sulphate to dye/stain wood.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Good thoughts. It also occurred to me that perhaps something either on the cast iron table or the blade itself was reacting with the wood (rather like the tannins in oak and iron). But it seems so very far fetched given that doesn't happen to oak which as a species is absolutely renowned for it and which I've witnessed first hand. I've bandsawn more green oak than any other species by far save maybe Ash and its never reacted like this.

It's a good idea to phone the chap you suggest and I might just do that next week. I also think that whatever the cause of this, the treatment appears to be unanimously agreed that fast drying is the solution. I think my problem is the understanding, its a puzzle that I want to solve and even knowing the treatment, I still want to determine the underlying cause out of curiosity and the fungal theory isn't discounted because of the rate of spread but it's knocked my confidence in it. An experienced sawyer would be a good next call.

Have you got David ****'s number (pm me)?

Many thanks

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Just found this on t'interweb: (the thrust does also seem to echo the fungal idea which, as already stated due to the spread rate doesn't make sense to me. However, soaking in alcohol seems worth trying...I wonder if that's the wood or the sawyer!!!)



A few years ago, a friend took down a multi-trunked holly tree on his property and gave me the trunks. They were too small for any sizeable blanks, but I got some spindles out of it, and had plenty left to experiment with. My feeling was I could use the successful experiments for inlay, trim, marquetry, etc., and learn from the failed experiments. I've also read everything I could put my hands on regarding holly.

So it all depends on how white you want the holly to be vs. how much time and/or $$ you are willing to put into it.


1. If you can wait until the right time, cut the tree when the sap is down. This helps keep blue and green fungal stains from forming.

It may sound obsessive, but if you really want to have the best shot at getting pure white holly you almost have to be. Soak your chain and bar in alcohol before you make the cuts. The goal is to limit the amount of fungal spores, which are everywhere, that touch the wood. Seal the ends of the log immediately.

2. If you can find access to a kiln anywhere near you, have the wood kiln dried. Cut the blanks yourself, or have the trunk milled into lumber. A mill near me will mill trees which meet certain basic requirements for $150/hour--well worth it because they could mill a tree the size of yours in about 10 minutes. Then rent, barter, or beg kiln time.

In my experience, even following all other precautions, pure white holly is impossible without kiln drying. Drying schedules are impossible to follow without a modern, computerized kiln. I've tried modified versions of Holly's schedule I could achieve with a convection oven, dehumidifier, humidifier etc. The best I could get is a very nice, acceptable white, with no stain or streaking. But put it next to a kiln-dried piece and the difference is obvious.

3. If you want to try air drying, or if you turn a piece green, soak the piece in alcohol for at least a day before drying. Don't cover it with wood shavings. Use new brown bags. Do everything you can to keep dust and dirt away from the piece. Treat it like a computer chip factory clean room.

But, even following every precaution, and even after avoiding any blue or green stain, it is almost a certainty that air dried holly will develop a grayish cast to it. Again, this might be acceptable.

After all, people who only use the "snow-white" holly are often surprised to see what interesting grain and figure (especially ray flecks) "lesser" holly can have.

 

[Wizard9999]

As promised, here is a picture of a couple of the greener pieces.



Photo was taken on the iPad, so not best quality and it looks less grey more green in the flesh.

The cut pieces are now under a bench in the hallway next to a radiator, this is the quickest way I can think to dry it. But there is no way the remaining c.1.8m long piece of trunk can be brought into the house!

Terry.

 

[Beau]

Mine looked just like that on the outside but it didn't take much planing to get through to the true colour.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Thanks Terry.

My suggestion would be twofold then:
1) just leave the ones you're drying to dry and then we can test them with the plane to see if its skin deep
2) Take one of them and soak it in some kind of agent that kills bugs ie bleach or alcohol etc (even petrol would probably work). No idea how that will leave the wood but its worth a try.

No suggestions for the remaining log except to cut into shorter lengths, and treat in similar ways to the existing cut ones.

 

[marcros]

i can't add anything much to this thread, but...

I was given a holly log, cut "a couple of weeks ago" a couple of months ago. I thought that I would have a play with carving a spoon from it. Having started, I noticed it turning that same colour as the picture over a few hours. I had assumed that this was because the sap was high when it had been cut down.

I am following the thread with interest.

 

[woodpig]

Have you tried pouring boiling water over the cut faces straight away? Might be worth a try.

 

[Benchwayze]

I had a similar problem with some ash I was milling. Green and bluish grey streaks appearing after the cut.
It had me stumped for a few days, until I realised...

My Festool TS55 was leaking!

Ooops! Sorry.....

Hat. coat etc!

Cheers

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Thanks John.....er I think

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

well I just spoke to David on Mignal's advice and what a jolly helpful chap he is too. But no adjunct to what we've already discussed really. He did say he had tried bleaching it once but it only intensified the green colour!! That makes me really think it's chemical. He also advocates very fast drying despite the attendant cracking problems and concedes that 90% of the stock will end up as firewood.

I guess the up side is that since its destined for inlay or stringing or the odd flash of white then its not necessary to harvest huge planks of the stuff.

He did also say that the longer term discolouration is often a greyish tint and that does sound more like it's fungal activity. I'm now pretty convinced the tree Terry has that went green in front of our eyes is some form of chemical reaction and may well be unique to the ground water in our area. (Terry and I are in the same village). The reason for this apart from the speed it discoloured is that the deposits in my kettle are also the same green tint which I'm assuming is a cupric based deposit that's getting boiled out of solution along with the limestone.

My best guess is that there is a parts per million low level concentration of some cupric compound which is oxidising on cutting and exposure to the air. If it's not copper (which I appreciate is a harmful heavy metal in large concentrations) then its something else which reacts with oxygen to give a green result.

 

[iNewbie]

Theres a post on another forum about this - his experience:

"A few years ago, a friend took down a multi-trunked holly tree on his property and gave me the trunks. They were too small for any sizeable blanks, but I got some spindles out of it, and had plenty left to experiment with. My feeling was I could use the successful experiments for inlay, trim, marquetry, etc., and learn from the failed experiments. I've also read everything I could put my hands on regarding holly.

So it all depends on how white you want the holly to be vs. how much time and/or $$ you are willing to put into it.

As the three last posters said:

1. If you can wait until the right time, cut the tree when the sap is down. This helps keep blue and green fungal stains from forming.

It may sound obsessive, but if you really want to have the best shot at getting pure white holly you almost have to be. Soak your chain and bar in alcohol before you make the cuts. The goal is to limit the amount of fungal spores, which are everywhere, that touch the wood. Seal the ends of the log immediately.

2. If you can find access to a kiln anywhere near you, have the wood kiln dried. Cut the blanks yourself, or have the trunk milled into lumber. A mill near me will mill trees which meet certain basic requirements for $150/hour--well worth it because they could mill a tree the size of yours in about 10 minutes. Then rent, barter, or beg kiln time.

In my experience, even following all other precautions, pure white holly is impossible without kiln drying. Drying schedules are impossible to follow without a modern, computerized kiln. I've tried modified versions of Holly's schedule I could achieve with a convection oven, dehumidifier, humidifier etc. The best I could get is a very nice, acceptable white, with no stain or streaking. But put it next to a kiln-dried piece and the difference is obvious.

3. If you want to try air drying, or if you turn a piece green, soak the piece in alcohol for at least a day before drying. Don't cover it with wood shavings. Use new brown bags. Do everything you can to keep dust and dirt away from the piece. Treat it like a computer chip factory clean room.

But as was noted by the previous poster, even following every precaution, and even after avoiding any blue or green stain, it is almost a certainty that air dried holly will develop a grayish cast to it. Again, this might be acceptable.

After all, people who only use the "snow-white" holly are often surprised to see what interesting grain and figure (especially ray flecks) "lesser" holly can have."

http://www.aawforum.org/vbforum/showthr ... er-cutting

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Yes...that'll be the one I posted a few posts back!

 

[Wizard9999]

OK so just over a week on I thought I'd give a status report.

The Holly has been in my hallway, under a bench next to a radiator. It feels a fair bit drier and somewhat lighted, but the drying process has not been without consequence.









On the positive side I'm convinced it looks less green.

Terry.

 

[yetloh]

Just stumbled across this thread.

A few years ago I had a holly tree taken down in the garden in the winter. I band sawe it into planks of varying thicknesses and put it into stick in my well ventilated workshop loft, having waxed the ends of the planks, and pretty much forgot about it. A couple of years later it was dry and soome of it really white, the rest has pale greenish lines following the grain much as most species do in varying shades of brown, but the green is certainly not pronounced and does not affect the whole surface. It is all perfectly usable apart from some splitting and quite a lot of twist.

I'm not sure what the lessons from this are. It certainly wasn't dried quickly but was felled in the winter. It was certainly still very wet when sawn as confirmed by the state of my bandsaw. Maybe I just got lucky.

Jim