Gouges

[MikeG.]

I've never owned a gouge, and I'm about to buy one or more. I could do with some advice. I want larger sized gouges for carving thumbnails.Around an inch is ideal. Quite a number that I see on the bay are in cannel, though, and I obviously need out cannel. I realise that there is quite a lot of steel to remove in regrinding from in to out, so I was just after a bit of advice from those who may have done this. My instinct is to square off the end first, which will never leave me grinding thin steel (other than right at the start), and then grind the cannel the other side. Is this how I should do it, or should I set up to grind the out cannel right from the start of the process?

 

[dzj]

I thought you had enough tools.

 

[MikeG.]

Yeah, pretty much. But I've got no carving tools, and I need to do some carving.

 

[custard]

Going from in-cannel to out-cannel isn't too arduous with a power grinding wheel or linisher, it's no different to re-profiling a turning gouge. But going the opposite direction would be a nightmare!

The woodworker's gouges I own all have the bevel 100% on one side or the other, and that's how I sharpen and maintain them.

I'm not a carver, but the carving gouges I keep for the odd bit of low skill carving, have most of the bevel on the convex face, but say 20% of the total bevel on the concave face. And, rightly or wrongly, that's how I maintain them.

Another point is that woodworkers gouges are pretty thick and clearly designed to be bashed with a mallet. Carver's gouges (at least in my limited and non-expert experience!) are much, much finer.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Don't bother with regrinding from in-cannel to out or vice-versa. Gouges are quite common, so just look for one with a size and sweep close to what you need. Chances are it'll need a bit of tidying up, maybe including a touch on the grinder, but no more than any other second hand chisel.

 

[Trevanion]

Some of the older gouges probably only had the hard steel on the one side of the gouge anyway.

 

[MikeG.]

.......Another point is that woodworkers gouges are pretty thick and clearly designed to be bashed with a mallet......

That's precisely what I'll be going for. I'll not be gently pushing through some apple, pear or lime......I'll be bashing this into oak.

 

[MikeG.]

Some of the older gouges probably only had the hard steel on the one side of the gouge anyway.

Interesting. Thanks.

 

[AndyT]

I assume you have seen this advice from Peter Follansbee, who spends a lot of time bashing gouges into oak.

https://pfollansbee.wordpress.com/2010/ ... ng-gouges/

 

[MikeG.]

I assume you have seen this advice from Peter Follansbee, who spends a lot of time bashing gouges into oak.

https://pfollansbee.wordpress.com/2010/ ... ng-gouges/

No I hadn't. Thanks.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Some of the older gouges probably only had the hard steel on the one side of the gouge anyway.

Interesting. Thanks.

I've cleaned up quite a few fairly old forged bolster gouges (all joiner's and pattern maker's, not carvers) and I've not come across a laminated one.

 

[MikeG.]

Some of the older gouges probably only had the hard steel on the one side of the gouge anyway.

Interesting. Thanks.

I've cleaned up quite a few fairly old forged bolster gouges (all joiner's and pattern maker's, not carvers) and I've not come across a laminated one.

I've seen a few pattern maker's gouges, and they seem very long. Why is that?

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Because often patterns were for huge castings, and they were used like paring chisels - the surfaces have to be as close to flat or whatever the desired shape as possible.They also had to reach inside some patterns.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

As Phil says, plus patternmakers had to work to very close tolerances (in woodworking terms) and the extra length gave better control of the cut.

Some patternmaker's gouges and paring chisels were made with cranked handles, too. That allowed work in the middle of very large areas where the handle (and hand holding it) of a normal 'straight' chisel would foul the surface of the work.

Interesting branch of toolery - but not applicable to 17th century style carving in oak!

 

[Woody2Shoes]

Peter Follansbee would use an out-cannel (bevel on the outside of the curve) chisel to carve a thumbnail of the sort you want. Cheers, W2S

PS perhaps resorting to a 'bent' chisel one some occasions - e.g. https://www.woodsmithexperience.co.uk/s ... 5-40-bent/

PPS I think there's a nomenclature thing here - 'gouges' for joiners tend to be in-cannel, 'carving chisels/gouges' for wood carvers tend to be out-cannel

PPPS I think you alrasdy knew the first bit- sorry!

PPPPS I can see loads of carving gouges/chisels of the sort you want on the bay

 

[MikeG.]

.......PPS I think there's a nomenclature thing here - 'gouges' for joiners tend to be in-cannel, 'carving chisels/gouges' for wood carvers tend to be out-cannel........

When joiners do rough carving, as I am proposing, then there is a clash of culture and nomenclature! I am after a big carving gouge (multiple, actually), or an out cannel joiner's gouge, for use with a big mallet in some hard wood.

This is the sort of thing I am looking at, and yes, there are loads on Ebay at the moment. I'm trying for "job lots" rather than individual gouges.

 

[Sheffield Tony]

I sourced several of mine from the Tools for self reliance stall at the Bodger's ball. Now, not suggesting you go to the ball, but I don't know if TFSR have a more regular outlet for surplus tools. As I suppose you might guess, older tools are often what gets donated, but the recipients are only in Africa or wherever, not the 18th century ! They need moulding planes and carving gouges about as much as a UK joiner does.

 

[xy mosian]

One of the well known carvers, sorry I forget his name of course, advocates what is effectively a back bevel. That is a bevel on the inside of an out cannel gouge, his reasoning goes along the lines of altering the both the angle of the gouge to the workpiece and changing the angle of the edge, for coarse or finer work.
Now if that reasoning also applies to an in cannel gouge, you could get alot of work done rather than grinding. Merely concentrate any sharpening to the outer face of the gouge gradually converting it to out cannel over time.
xy

 

[MikeG.]

One of the well known carvers, sorry I forget his name of course, advocates what is effectively a back bevel. That is a bevel on the inside of an out cannel gouge, his reasoning goes along the lines of altering the both the angle of the gouge to the workpiece and changing the angle of the edge, for coarse or finer work.
Now if that reasoning also applies to an in cannel gouge, you could get alot of work done rather than grinding. Merely concentrate any sharpening to the outer face of the gouge gradually converting it to out cannel over time.
xy

Interesting thought.........but it occurs to me that this would lead to a change in the cutting profile. The further back you grind the out cannel the bigger the curve a plunge/ stab cut would make. I could find myself working around 10 chairs and a table and ending up with quite a different thumbnail size at the start and the end of the process.

 

[xy mosian]

Of course, silly me!
xy