Jameshow
Established Member
Not to mention AI
Gaming PC advice?
- Thread starter Doug71
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AI is the main consumer of GPU today. Interestingly NVidea lost $350B of its value yesterday because of a refined AI approach that is more efficient than those used today.
artie
Sawdust manufacturer.
And add the thrice repeated advice from the western Crossfire trail.
Don't rush things, you/he will get a more harmonious outcome.
A bit like pies, make it yourself and you know exactly what is in there and unlike some of the Pc builders who shift stuff getting a bit dated.
That new chinese software, well that is what happens if you take your eyes of the ball and think your position as market leader is beyond reach.
Hmmm.... pies, now I'm hungry.
The problem with self build is that 99% wont really have a clue as to what they are doing, and putting success completely down to luck that it all works as it should.
Assemble the bits, hit 'on' and a puff of smoke appears along with the 'ive wasted my money' smell, or it just doesnt switch on and they are left stuck, and dont know what to do to fix it other than take eit apart again.
You buy prebuilt and there are no problems that cannot be easily remedied. You have a guarantee and all parts specced inside will work together
Assemble the bits, hit 'on' and a puff of smoke appears along with the 'ive wasted my money' smell, or it just doesnt switch on and they are left stuck, and dont know what to do to fix it other than take eit apart again.
You buy prebuilt and there are no problems that cannot be easily remedied. You have a guarantee and all parts specced inside will work together
Blackswanwood
Still Learning
I thought that was quite impressive. The US has stopped Chinese companies getting access to the latest chips so rather than accept defeat their engineers found a way to get ahead working with what they have got.
Absolutely, this is the risk of closing out a country like China. The same is happening with the chips. They are very busy making in-country designs for all the tech they are being denied. It’s self defeating in the long run. China tech development cycles are very short.
Ollie78
Established Member
I have built and repaired quite a few and never had any smoke occur.
To be fair it is like assembling a lego model or an airfix. You only need a couple of screwdrivers.
Things will pretty much only fit where they are supposed to go, wires all have pre terminated plugs etc.
You can probably find a step by step assemby video on youtube to follow carefully if you are super nervous.
If you buy a prebuilt any old numpty could have assembled it and you won`t know exactly what is in there.
Build your own and you know exactly whats going on.
They have both the number of people and the skills, the days of looking down at Chinese products is long gone and when you get something made in China like a new machine that is a bit cheap and cheerful then that is because it has been made to fit a price and not because that is the best they can do.
But you don't want to end up with a three legged donkey. The parts may fit and work but are they ideally matched, you need to look at the Pc like a network in that it can only perform as fast as the slowest node so filling a case with fast components will all be for nothing if you have a mismatch .
For motherboards I have only used Gigabyte now for many years because they have been so trouble free and AMD cpu's but no gaming, it is easier to get a case & mobo that lights up like picadilly circus than something plain and often transparent so you can see into it.
Because.... you are EXPERIENCED
The point I was making is someone with ZERO experience either building or repairing computers, like in this instance the OP's 15yr old son.
"Any old numpty", which would be like every other factory or business worker on the planet,
As to knowing whats in it, thats a simple case of reading the description isnt it ?
But what you are implying is if someone, without experience is going to build their own, there must be some magical transfer of information to tell them that this motherboard is better than this other motherboard, or that this power supply is adequate for the power draw of their system,GPU etc or even what GPU they should choose, or even for that matter whether they should use intel or AMD
Whats the differences ? as in why would someone choose AMD Ryzen over Intel i3,5 or 9
BITD AMD was known because it runs hot, I believe its still the case. So maybe not the best choice for a gaming system that it going to be running at max.
Which then leads to another point. Should they use standard cooling with a gaming system, or is liquid cooled more use, in relation to using intel or AMD.
And thats just a couple of little points, that anyone aged 15 is not going to know without a lot of research. So again theres no magical transfer of knowledge just because a person has decided to build rather than buy.
It's a long time since I built my first system, which i think was a pentium 2 or 3. I think i had either 256 or 512, though probably 256mb ram and a really basic gpu- integrated i seem to remember.
But while its ok, i wouldnt recommend it as a first system unless you are actually into that sort off thing from the off.
So i believe it would be best for the OP's son to get a system, and maybe later upgrade the ram, the gpu but only if he is interested and looking to get into that sort of thing.
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Another route you might pursue if you want the flexibility of choosing the individual components is to use Scan's custom build service, I recently considered that path after a 6y old high-end full ATX-tower build failed with a CPU/Motherboard fault - wouldn't power-on nor POST.. I used it for photo processing for 60Mp files, and some development work - IoT programming and a few VM's for an open Source project I provide development support for so circa 2017 build, 6-core 12 threads, 32Gb RAM, water-cooled 'cos I hate noise and a lovely to work on Fractal Design case. I looked at their custom build service since my eyesight isn't as good as it was and I was considering spending circa £1k on the core cpu-mobo-RAM alone so as to re-use my existing case, psu, GPU card and NVRAM stick. ...well that was the plan - I ended up getting a Ryzen 9 -12 core/24 threads, 64Gb DDR6 RAM and an ASUS mobo + Corsair water cooler since the old block wouldn't fit the Ryzen... and upon 1st power up the PSU blew up royally - loud bang, sparks and smoke, took out a 10A fuse in the plug and tripped a breaker in the consumer unit...
1st time I've experienced such a spectacular failure -most times PSU's go open circuit and 'silently' fail...
So with some trepidation given my existing investment I ordered a new PSU -from Scan who I'd oirdered all the components from on a Saturday evening over the Xmas holidays and to my surprise it turned up at 6PM the following day, plugged it in and went through the rather laborious process of initial BIOS setup, o/s install process etc but all was good and I was back up and running!
Just sayin if you want to go their build and test route that that is likely a safer option where they will assemble and test to your spec the components and ship you the guts to install into whatever you wish. In this instance I didn't use that service and went alone because the range of water-coolers they offered for this custom build were unsuitable for the build I wanted - after speaking to them they said that NP - I could have gone off-piste and their engineers would have certified and built it to my spec if they thought it was OK.
So to my mind the best of both worlds if you aren't comfortable building from scratch yourself..
/Ed
1st time I've experienced such a spectacular failure -most times PSU's go open circuit and 'silently' fail...So with some trepidation given my existing investment I ordered a new PSU -from Scan who I'd oirdered all the components from on a Saturday evening over the Xmas holidays and to my surprise it turned up at 6PM the following day, plugged it in and went through the rather laborious process of initial BIOS setup, o/s install process etc but all was good and I was back up and running!
Just sayin if you want to go their build and test route that that is likely a safer option where they will assemble and test to your spec the components and ship you the guts to install into whatever you wish. In this instance I didn't use that service and went alone because the range of water-coolers they offered for this custom build were unsuitable for the build I wanted - after speaking to them they said that NP - I could have gone off-piste and their engineers would have certified and built it to my spec if they thought it was OK.
So to my mind the best of both worlds if you aren't comfortable building from scratch yourself..
/Ed
I accept that experience plays a big part in our woodworking but with technology like the Pc it is of less value simply because what was a few years back is now historical, it is continous change and even something like USB is not what it started out as because where we once had just USB 1 using A & B connectors for what seemed ages, now we have mini, micro and C with what knows round the corner and USB4. This has occured with all the interfaces in a Pc both internal and external requiring cabling to change along the way but so far the way the motherboard sits against a plate for external connections in the case seems to still be the same.
What makes things possible for anyone with basic handskills is the wealth of info available from reputable outlets online, with some learning about the insides of the Pc as I said before and a spreadsheet it is possible to come up with a potential machine that you now just need to confirm that everything works together and you have some room for future upgrades.
Here is a guide, you really need AM5 as that is the future :
Motherboard: https://www.scan.co.uk/buying-guides/motherboards/amd
For gaming it will be the graphics card that will be the hardest decision as they can be not only very expensive but also not always available. Here some graphic cards require there own power connector from the PSU rather than via the motherboard so select a PSU that has the connector even if you are not needing it right now, again a bit of future proofing.
At just 15 it is worth learning about the systems because at least you could get involved on gaming forums and not be in the dark and building your own is satisfying, we all started off on the bottom rung !
Perhaps the best way to buy (ready-built or a series of components to make oneself) should be determined by a similar syndrome as that affecting woodworking: are we interested in the process of making something as well as the process of using something. If it's just the latter, the trick is to avoid going to the PC-selling equivalent of the high street "furniture" store. (Who wants the equivalent of a chipboard PC). If its the former (a yen to make something and to make it well) then its worth learning how to pick, match and build a PC from components.
Personally I buy ready-made, as I'm too busy with 27 other hobbies already; but I make sure the PC maker I buy from is a good 'un. Even then, its possible to have problems because of component and associated software/firmware mismatches. These mismatches aren't always immediately apparent. I bought a high end Chillblast PC some years ago which works like a dream now but did have teething problems. It worked, when I first got it, but had a number of strange slowings, refusals and occasional equivalents of The Blue Screen of Death.
Chillblast were excellent with the aftersales service, replacing components, doing extensive tests etc.. After a week of this, they discovered that the motherboard and GPU (two very recent designs) had a mismatch in their firmware so replaced the motherboard with another costing significantly more but at no cost to me.
Chillblast techies know lots. But even they were flummoxed for a while by this component mismatch. Pity a self-builder with such an emergent issue.
Yes a dilema for many and for me the journey can be as important as the destination because the journey delivers knowledge which is a re-usable asset in the future. In woodworking there has been a shift towards the destination taking priority as evidenced by the large number of products available to make life easier rather than the days when most would spend time making jigs like @Steve Maskery who demonstrates this in his video's.
Is it also a case that people have lost some of there inquisitiveness and desire to understand in exchange for more instant results, this was often instilled into us as kids because we had to learn to fix and repair as it was not a just buy it society back then.
ey_tony
Established Member
There's absolutely nothing magical about building a computer, most people could build one with simple basic knowledge of how to handle and install components. Building one is the easy bit and yes even a bright 15 year old could if they did their homework first.
I built my first computer with absolutely no previous experience whatsoever. I understood how they worked from a keyboard perspective but that was it. Like most wiser people, before attempting a build I did my homework thoroughly first and then once I'd chosen suitable components to meet my requirements it was a case of assembling and fitting/connecting the components into the case and onto the motherboard.
Most people could build a computer from scratch but it's such things as configuring the BIOS set up so that it boots things up in the correct order etc, installing drivers etc which is often the cause of frustration and head-scratching but even that can be overcome by explaining any issues you have on the many internet computer forums.
I built my first computer with absolutely no previous experience whatsoever. I understood how they worked from a keyboard perspective but that was it. Like most wiser people, before attempting a build I did my homework thoroughly first and then once I'd chosen suitable components to meet my requirements it was a case of assembling and fitting/connecting the components into the case and onto the motherboard.
Most people could build a computer from scratch but it's such things as configuring the BIOS set up so that it boots things up in the correct order etc, installing drivers etc which is often the cause of frustration and head-scratching but even that can be overcome by explaining any issues you have on the many internet computer forums.
Agent_zed
Established Member
I built my PC. I say 'built' but as mentioned by other above it is more a case of plugging bits into the holes that they are designed for.
My take on it - If it were my kid I'd want them to build it so they have a sense of achievement and also something to put on their CV. It is likely to lead to the ability in future to say 'hey my dishwasher is broke, I'll have a go at fixing it, I've built a PC so it can't be any more difficult than that'.
If you go the self build route perhaps getting a practice pc to start with is an option, just something dirt cheap secondhand to practice taking bits in and out of the sockets to get a feel for how much pressure they require, messing with the bios etc.
The only problem I had with mine was I didn't push the ram in hard enough so it wouldn't boot. For a while I thought it was a problem with the motherboard bios as there was the potential that the processor was too new and needed an update. Apparently AMD will ship you an older processor on loan to be able to upgrade the bios (Or at least they did when a built mine a few years back). Although I realised before that that the ram wasn't quite in properly.
As for windows licences, I've found that old win8 or win10 licences off the back of defunct machines tend to work as long as they are pretty old machines so they aren't using the digital licence. You can download Win10/11 for free and try the licence key and if it works, happy days.
My take on it - If it were my kid I'd want them to build it so they have a sense of achievement and also something to put on their CV. It is likely to lead to the ability in future to say 'hey my dishwasher is broke, I'll have a go at fixing it, I've built a PC so it can't be any more difficult than that'.
If you go the self build route perhaps getting a practice pc to start with is an option, just something dirt cheap secondhand to practice taking bits in and out of the sockets to get a feel for how much pressure they require, messing with the bios etc.
The only problem I had with mine was I didn't push the ram in hard enough so it wouldn't boot. For a while I thought it was a problem with the motherboard bios as there was the potential that the processor was too new and needed an update. Apparently AMD will ship you an older processor on loan to be able to upgrade the bios (Or at least they did when a built mine a few years back). Although I realised before that that the ram wasn't quite in properly.
As for windows licences, I've found that old win8 or win10 licences off the back of defunct machines tend to work as long as they are pretty old machines so they aren't using the digital licence. You can download Win10/11 for free and try the licence key and if it works, happy days.
It is so much easier to install the OS and programs today than it once was when you had to use a disk drive and boot disk to get DOS loaded and then Windows. Now just a USB stick to get going and the rest is downloaded, no more boxes of 3.5 inch disk to load one after the other, a program like Orcad was on about 9 disk. Who remembers having to span disk to save data because there was not enough capacity ? I don't get any issues with drivers, again downloaded but yes drivers were a real pita once because before USB even a driver for RS232 had to installed before the keyboard could be used.
Yes the nighmares of yesterday when a full install of OS and all the programs required a box of disk and a lot of time and patience, now all I keep is a backup of product keys and activation codes along with just my work files and nothing else, it is just so easy to download and do a clean install.
Ollie78
Established Member
I was not experienced the first time and that was before the very easy to access information we have now.
I am not suggesting just buying some random parts and hoping for the best. This is why I mentioned pc part picker as a good start to check if everything will work well together. Also you can check other peoples builds and copy successful systems that are in your budget range.
I don`t think it is useful to be overly worried about what is effectively assembling some parts in a box to save considerable money and gain knowledge.
The "magical" transfer of information you mention is just reading a few websites, watching a few youtube videos or maybe asking a question or two on a forum. Then more is gained by actually doing it.
The issue I have with some (not all) of the prebuilt systems is they will often specify cheaper parts like power supplies just on the edge of what you need meaning if you upgrade the gpu later you will need a new psu. Skimping on little details, cheap and nasty fans to save a few quid. I know margins are tight etc. and this is why careful shopping is important.
An example being, I bought a brand new sealed seasonic gold power supply for £65 on ebay, the same one on ccl was nearly double, exact same part.
I have personally seen a good few "numpty" assembled products in all industries, along with deceptive descriptions which lack important detail.
The answers to all the questions are easily answered, there are power supply calculators, performance charts for cpu and gpu, even performance per £ charts. You can start in this case with the known budget and and see what performance you can achieve.
I chose AMD on my last build as a performance per £ calculation, and extremely positive reviews of the then newly released at the time Ryzen line.
However, if there was a particularly good deal on an Intel I might have gone for that.
For gaming generally single core performance is more important than having a huge number of cores so a Ryzen 5 7600x with 6 cores is probably excellent value, if you are going to be rendering complex 3d then you might want a 12 core so Ryzen 9. Similar options in the Intel range.
I have never done a watercooled build because I just think it safer to keep the liquid away from the electrics ! but these days sealed all in one radiators for the CPU look like a decent option and may be quieter if not necessarily more efficient at cooling.
https://uk.pcpartpicker.com/
https://linustechtips.com/
https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/cpu-hierarchy,4312.html
https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/gpu-hierarchy,4388.html
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Doug71
Established Member
Thank you everybody, really appreciate all the advice and detailed information, very helpful.
I have been in contact with a chap in my village who has a computer business, he is happy to advise and help us with the build, he also mentioned pcpartpicker and overclockers so he sounds to be thinking along the same lines as people on here.
I will keep you posted of developments but I think it will be a while before we get started, got a bit of research to do!
Thanks again for all the input.
I have been in contact with a chap in my village who has a computer business, he is happy to advise and help us with the build, he also mentioned pcpartpicker and overclockers so he sounds to be thinking along the same lines as people on here.
I will keep you posted of developments but I think it will be a while before we get started, got a bit of research to do!
Thanks again for all the input.
