G H Buck smoother

[condeesteso]

[First, sorry if I outbid someone here on this, but I was very keen indeed.]

I took a bit of a risk but it did look very good in the pics and for once the seller had bothered to photograph it well.

It's marked G H Buck 1824, and Buck & Ryan. I traced him to Edgeware Road, established 1824 - a tool-making business taken over from Richard Nelson. I don't know if G H was the Buck of Buck and Ryan, I suspect it was a brother. Any information very welcome - is there a connection with the Bucks that went to the States and claimed previous experience in Sheffield (Buck Brothers)?

Anyway, this plane... I'm fairly certain this is the closest I will ever come to walking into Buck & Ryan in the 1830s (say) and buying a new one. I'd say the quality is very high - perfecr quarter beech body, crafted wedge, box insert at heel etc etc.
The condition is astounding - it's seen a little use but not much I think. The iron [Matheson] is perfect at the top, primary bevel looks to be the original and it has a well-cambered secondary with no interference on the back (the grind marks as new). Cap screw is also perfect - another good sign

Note the residue oil/grease left between the blade and cap - no pitting at all, virtually pristine and the cap screw was left just fingertight - this owner knew what to do and seemed to have packed it away with real care.

I am interested to understand this plane more. Did Buck buy the iron from Matheson, as I thought Matheson got their irons from Sheffield? Is this sole welded or cast? Where has it been all these years with no owners' stamp (very unusual I feel on a plane of this quality).
Would like to know more about the Bucks anyway. Here it is straight as it arrived (just blade adjustment) - very promising I think:

 

[Mr_P]

Nice find, I would have paid more than that if I'd have spotted it.

 

[AndyT]

Well, Douglas, if you'd wanted family history on the Bucks, there was some in your thread here https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/post844308.html#p844308 - but if you just wanted to show us a really nice minty-fresh plane, you've done a great job and out-Bucked our Jimi!

And you paid a very fair price! Nice one!

Edit - just looked back at the seller's photos - you forgot to say it had been kept in its original box all these years!

And as for real place of manufacture - talk to Ken Hawley for five minutes and you will soon learn that regardless of what marks may suggest, all the really good tools were made in Sheffield.

 

[JohnPW]

From http://www.planemakers-database.com/page/8/

George BUCK LONDON
245 Tottenham Court Rd. 1838 – 1861
245 – 247 Tottenham Court Rd. 1862 – 1866

Mrs G. BUCK
247 Tottenham Court Rd. 1867 – 1879
242 Tottenham Court Rd. 1880 – 1930

George BUCK
21 Goodge St. 1838 – 1980>

Firm closed in the 1980′s. Planes are common.

BUCK & RYAN
261 Edgware Rd. 1910 – 1946>
312, 326 & 352 Euston Rd. 1914 – 1918
310 & 312 Euston Rd. 1922 – 1946
101 Tottenham Court Rd. 1963 – present*

The claim “Established in 1824″ in their catalogs seems to be based on tracing the lineage of the firm back to George Henry Buck and his father Joseph Buck but the date does not quite match with their recorded dates.

I presume the above is taken from one of the books on British plane makers.

I suspect the plane is alot newer than 1824. The name Buck and Ryan only dates from 1910, so my guess is it was sold by the Buck and Ryan shop with their name on it, naturally, and the typeface looks quite modern, sometime in the 20th century, but they also put a "GH Buck 1824" on it because they claim that's when they started. At their last address and website before they closed, they still claimed they were established in 1824; http://www.toolbankexpress.com/shop/buckandryan/

I think a plane from the 19th century wouldn't have a year on it. I've got a Buck plough plane marked "Buck, 247 Tottenham Ct Rd".

*They moved several years ago a few shops down the road and then to a much smaller shop in Southampton Row a few streets away, even that has closed now.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Wow - that's the nicest coffin smoother I've ever seen!

Looking in BPM2 at Mathieson's dates, 'Alexander Mathieson' is given as 1822 - 1851, 'Alexander Mathieson & Son' 1853 - 1894, and 'Alexander Mathieson & Sons [plural] Ltd' as 1903 - 1966. I'm not sure about the missing years!

Viewing the close-up of the stamp on the iron, it seems to me to be 'Alex Mathieson & Son', which may put the iron in second half of the 19th century. I'd say there's a very strong probability that iron and body are contemporaneous in this case; you can't always make that assumption.

Not conclusive proof, of course - all sorts of possibilities like me reading the photo wrong, Buck's using new old stock irons, BPM2 dates being a bit inaccurate, you name it. However, for what it's worth...

 

[Tony Spear]

*They moved several years ago a few shops down the road and then to a much smaller shop in Southampton Row a few streets away, even that has closed now.

I was about to mention that as in the late 70's/early 80's I used to work from an office in Southampton Row, dead opposite B & R.

I don't remember them doing much in the way of tools (admittedly I didn't go in), but looking in window the showroom appeared to be full of sack trucks, trolleys and other types of warehouse type stuff.

 

[AndyT]

I agree with JohnPW, it has to be after 1910, but it's still a very nice plane.
I imagine it might have been bought by or for a non-professional who worked in the city, near the convenient, visible shop, didn't have an owner's mark, didn't use it much and put it away in its box, like Sleeping Beauty!

 

[Richard T]

Looks fab Douglas.

An infill in short trousers. Seamlessly fitted - now how do you do that when the bit you are trying to fit is closed underneath and there is no way to mark it? Tricky. From here, I'd say it was cast.

Unusual to see a strike button on the back. Is that Beech also?

Angle looks steep. Is it 50, 55?

 

[condeesteso]

Thanks all - clear now and agreed, after 1910 most likely. I think the Bucks did their bit to confuse anyway (various trading names, addresses etc). My guess is cast - whilst welded can be invisible (later Norrises I believe) the heel and toe were ground (slight arcs left on faces).
I'm sure the strike button is box.Good point re the pitch - not measured it but it looks around 50, I shall check. The iron is Mathieson and SON - no sign of an S and no space for it above the WARRANTED mark across the base of stamp. I love the fact it is almost untouched, I shall keep it that way by using a piece of scrap to protect during lateral adjustments.
I'll be on the lookout for that G H Buck mark (the script with date) on anything else, although I may never discover who or where this was really made.
The box it was stored in by the way - from an old Record 50 vice (6").
The main thing is I can make this a very good user I expect and then probably put some of the others away (a few too many smoothers around),

Just wondering, what is the trick to find an ended listing on eBay... everyone knows what I paid and I didn't say that? (£31).

 

[marcros]

If you click on "advanced" next to the search box, one if the additional criteria you can select is for completed listings.

 

[condeesteso]

Andy - re Ken Hawley and Sheffield... wonder what he has to say about Gabriel, Moseley, my Ann Moon try plane, Norris etc. And then north a bit, Spiers, Mathieson?? I'm a big fan of the Sheffield mark (generally) but not exclusively. I think there is a fair chance this smoother was made there, but I doubt I'll find out. Personally I like to share it out a bit, recently got a Spiers infill, mainly because it was made 10 miles up the road from where my mum was made (that's reasoned shopping for you) :lol:

 

[Corneel]

Just want to say I absolutely love that plane! Great find.

 

[AndyT]

Douglas, although I didn't mean to suggest that there were not other centres of good toolmaking, marks don't always tell the whole story.

There is plenty of evidence that Sheffield makers made tools marked with names known from elsewhere. For example, my 1938 Marples catalogue makes it perfectly clear that you could order planes marked either Marples or Moseley. So not all Moseley planes come from London.

Also have a look at this article by Simon Barley which gives evidence that the many different names put on saws relate to a very few factories.

http://www.wkfinetools.com/tmaking/z_reading/2005-acidEtching_Saws/acidEtching-Simon1.asp

 

[condeesteso]

Agreed Andy, these days we call it own branding if it's the retailer mark, or second branding if the maker has more than one 'brand' - but it's been going on for years, maybe centuries. I am intruiged by the Mathieson iron in this one, let's assume it's original (I'm sure it is) and they were made for Mathieson in Sheffield (I believe?), and that the Buck mark is just that - a name stamp. It struck me that whoever made this made more than one, or maybe a range of sizes. The whole approach strikes me as unusual - I have not seen another plane made quite this way and finding another under whatever brand name would be very interesting. Meanwhile, I gave it a slight hone and back polish, it works very well indeed so really happy with it. I noted the original primary was 20 degrees by the way. I found that on Jim's 'Ottie' also, the primary was really low too. I like the ergonomics of these coffin planes too... I think I need an infill coffin smoother, oh dear.

 

[MickCheese]

Slightly off topic.

The postage costs on this item was shown as £18.30. It's always worth looking at these types of items with interest as most people will post at cost if you ask. One of the reasons there were not many bidders on this one I suspect is they were put off by the postage and couldn't be bothered to email the seller.

Nick plane by the way.

Mick

 

[condeesteso]

Yes Mick, got it via Hermes at £7.95, but I did think the nineteen quid would put some off. Thanks Corneel, yes it is a cracker I think, working very well. I've been steadily putting my Baileys etc to one side and seeing how life goes using just woodies and now this (not really a woodie, what is it?).
Pitch by the way, a nice round 51.5 degrees.

 

[condeesteso]

I'd not seen a plane made this way before, then this turns up:

Bit rough, but same idea - eBay no 2514548975

 

[jimi43]

Sorry to have missed all these "Buck" threads...as you're namesake once wrote Douglas...I have been abducted by alien spacecraft and taken to this little restaurant at the end of the Universe! :mrgreen:

As mitigation if mitigation is needed here...I did square the tulipwood panel for my control console with the old Buck try plane! Does that count?

Tony...strange you should say that you worked opposite that B&H office...right alongside GKN I guess and down from the infamous TV studios of the "F Word" fame!

I was just up the road in Theobalds Road at the time and there are a huge number of the old family tool dealers scattered around the area where Ann Moon once whittled her wares. These went all the way down to the Commercial Road of course where a huge enclave of toolmakers once traded.

Lovely smoother Douglas...you won a major find there...truly pristine condition and a real looker! I think there has been a huge resurgence in woodies of late....probably no small part caused by the articles we find in this forum! Think you need to lay low for a while and let the prices drop back to normal before we buy more!?

Jimi
(Ford Prefect somewhere out there in the Galaxy)