fun and games wth hide glue

[MIGNAL]

I've already indicated how it can be done. Put the glue in an old plastic glue bottle, the type with a spout. Put in a few marbles. That will help submerge the bottle and retain the heat once it's removed from the water bath.
Line the timbers up, next to each other. Pre warm them. If you really need more open time have a couple of infar red heat lamps hovering above them. Remove the bottle from the water bath and run two or three heavy beads down the length of each timber. You don't even need to squeeze the bottle, the Hide glue should run by itself. It's much quicker than applying PVA. Absolutely no need to spread or brush the glue. Lay each piece of timber on top of each other. Let the weight or the clamping spread the glue. The rest is just a matter of having the clamps at the ready and at the right opening distance. Packing pieces/cauls can be pre tack glued on to the timbers. No need to fiddle around for those. It can be all done very quickly and efficiently. It's exactly the same method that I used to glue up 24 strips of 0.6 mm veneer. Even though they were only 1 cm x 8 cm's, 24 strips glued in one single operation is an involved glue up. Not only that but I repeated the exercise 20 times. Not once did the glue gel. Standard veneer is so thin that it doesn't retain any heat, hence the need for the heat lamps. Thicker timbers will retain the heat much better.

 

[marcus]

I like the trick with the marbles, that's a new one to me. If you say you've done this with pieces that size then I guess it can be done, though I'm surprised that just running a bead down the centre of a piece 1" thick by 3" wide will guarantee that clamp pressure will spread the glue right to the edges everywhere, even with the pieces well heated! I'll have to try it sometime.

Re. hide glue failing, it is not just damp that can make it fail. Very dry conditions (such as found in some modern houses where the central heating is turned up all the time) can cause it to fail by desiccation (which is why soaking a hide glue joint with meths will allow it to be disassembled: the meths takes away moisture from the glue as it evaporates, apparently). For this reason I wouldn't use hide glue on a joint that really mustn't fail (like the one under discussion). I've seen antique hide glue joints fail for this reason when people have put pieces next to a radiator or in a sunny spot. Of course they shouldn't, but people being people....

So personally I would not do this sort of joint with hide glue, even if I was confident of getting a good joint..... Hide glue is to me the ultimate fine woodworking glue, but not glue is best for every situation.

And also, now, that I think of it, one is always advised never to veneer long grain up to edge of a substrate with hide glue as it will tend to lift. Not sure about the reason why it does this, but in a way it is a sort of similar situation to the one under discussion, which would at least give me pause for thought. Not sure if that is relevant or not.

 

[marcros]

hmmm. Now I want to try with the hide glue and the marbles, but am slightly worried about whether it is a good idea to persever for the sake of it on this particular joint. I have PVA and Cascamite, both in date and fresh, so could use one of those. But the advantages of the hide glue remain.

decisions decisions.

 

[MIGNAL]

Who said one bead? You can run two, three, four or more if you feel the need. It's fast.
It's nonsense about the dry conditions of modern homes.
I've done similar tests as this chap and a whole host of others that are too many and varied to go into here. Every fresh batch of Hide glue that I purchase goes through a few tests but only because it's a natural product and I can't afford to be using bad glue. Don't forget to stay at the correct mixing temperature of hide glue. The real reason why you sometimes see old glue crumble.

http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Luthier ... etest.html

 

[marcus]

It's nonsense about the dry conditions of modern homes.

It's not nonsense, it's really common in antique furniture in centrally heated homes, I've seen it loads of times — the timber shrinks and the glue crumbles — so the joint comes apart, rather than the timber splitting. it happens in dovetailed boxes quite a lot, and with marquetry. In fact if I am called to house to look at a piece, and when I walk in it's like an oven, I KNOW that that will be a problem that needs addressing.

Sorry Mignal, have I offended you? If so it was not my intention. For what it's worth I think the infra red lamps are a great idea and I can see that if they get the timber nice and toasty they would solve the problem as far as the glue up itself goes. How warm can they get the timber and how wide an area do they heat? I may have to get some....

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I've seen cascamite fracture and crumble in chair joints when bone dry, as well.

 

[marcus]

I've seen cascamite fracture and crumble in chair joints when bone dry, as well

When I see this with cascamite in chair joints I have always assumed that is due to the brittleness of the glue — many years of tiny movements gradually cracking it up, which is why you so often see it in chairs (and why some people advocate glueing chairs with PVA, which is slightly flexible). Never really thought about it though: does cascamite degrade in low humidity? I'd be interested to know if that's the case!

 

[MIGNAL]

Any glue will have trouble when subjected to adverse conditions. I'm not even sure that what you are describing is a glue problem, timber problem or just plain expecting too much from the materials. If you are making furniture that will end up in a very dry environment then you really need to condition the wood to a similar environment, before you even start gluing any joints together. Not that much different from preparing an engineered floor really.

 

[marcus]

Any glue will have trouble when subjected to adverse conditions.

Well yes, but hide glue does suffer more under certain conditions than some more modern glues not least because it is an organic product. Another example of this is from the days when english furniture and pianos were sent off to colonies in hot and humid places — they used to have huge problems with furniture coming apart after a few years; and people in the USA who live in very hot humid areas avoid hide glue today for the same reason.....

I'm not even sure that what you are describing is a glue problem, timber problem or just plain expecting too much from the materials.

It's the glue joint that fails, not the timber, which to me indicates that the glue has degraded. When originally made the glue joint would have been stronger than the timber and the timber would have failed....

 

[marcros]

how times change- went to buy a couple of squeezy bottles and a bag of marbles at lunchtime. Couldnt find either on the highstreet of a little town i went to. i was expecting that the supermarket would have had both!

 

[MIGNAL]

Any glue will have trouble when subjected to adverse conditions.

Well yes, but hide glue does suffer more under certain conditions than some more modern glues not least because it is an organic product. Another example of this is from the days when english furniture and pianos were sent off to colonies in hot and humid places — they used to have huge problems with furniture coming apart after a few years; and people in the USA who live in very hot humid areas avoid hide glue today for the same reason.....

I'm not even sure that what you are describing is a glue problem, timber problem or just plain expecting too much from the materials.

It's the glue joint that fails, not the timber, which to me indicates that the glue has degraded. When originally made the glue joint would have been stronger than the timber and the timber would have failed....

I find that all very odd. I'm a member of 3 internet forums on Guitar making and one well known Violin making forum, all of them are dominated by the makers from the US. In the last 15 years or so Hide Glue has become very popular in Guitar making circles. It has virtually been 100% the dominant glue in Violin making and has been for hundreds of years.
Not once have I heard of a problem using Guitars or Violins in such a climate. Not once. I'm pretty sure if the problem existed that those forums would be full of warnings about makers shipping instruments to humid states or other countries. I honestly can't say that I've heard of it - not in India,Taiwan, Japan, Australia or anywhere else for matter. Plenty of warnings about using PVA and liquid bottled Hide glue though! Strange. You would think that pieces of wood barely 2 mm's thick, glued with Hide and under some 40 Kg of string pull would fall apart in a few days. They don't though.
You can post your concerns about Hide glue on here:

http://www.luthiersforum.com/

It's dominated by American makers, both Professional and Amateur. Some have been making for near on 40 years. if they don't know, no one will. The other one is the Violin making forum. Just Google maestronet. I wouldn't bother posting the message on there. They'll just laugh at you.

 

[marcus]

Mignal, Here's at least one of your colleagues who disagrees with you:

http://www.violins.on.ca/luthier/glue.html

who writes:

"Hide glue is the standard glue that is used by violin makers, and is prized for its organic nature and ability to be dissolved to remove a plate or other part of a violin and perform necessary repairs.

These very qualities are responsible for many of the small violin repairs - humidity and dryness can weaken the glue joints, making re-gluing of loose joints necessary. "

Which is exactly my experience with antique furniture.

Regarding the tropical climate thing, I admit I have no first hand experience of that, I am repeating what I've read on forums (from furniture makers in those areas) and in books about the history of furniture. If I'm wrong then OK, I've learnt something, and I'm not bothered about "people laughing at me". But I'm passionately interested in woodwork, and in learning more about it, which is why I come here. I will do some more research on it.

Perhaps we are talking in different time scales? Because I deal with antiques quite a lot I tend to think in the very long term, and so I am used to seeing hide glue that has failed in all sorts of ways. It happens a great deal — any furniture restorer is faced with a constant stream of failed hide glue joints in one form or another (if we're talking about being laughed at, try telling a restorer otherwise ). There is a world of difference between what happens in ten or twenty years (or in a short experiment in controlled conditions), and the change and cycling that occurs in a piece over much longer time periods.

A piece of furniture, especially a table, if well made, can easily be in circulation for 150 years plus. That's two human lifetimes worth of changing conditions that are completely out of the maker's control, often ranging from extreme heat and dryness, to several periods of extreme dampness when in storage, plus the annual climate cycle, together with the knocks and wear that comes from having perhaps twenty owners in that time. On top of that people are, I would guess, less careful with their furniture than with their musical instruments. Practical experience shows that even well made joints often fail under these conditions — frequently in as short a time as 40 years or less.

The point about hide glue making pieces last a long time is not because it is especially long lasting compared to all other glues (PVA excepted!), but because, unlike other glues, it can usually be more easily repaired when it does fail. My advice to the OP to use cascamite for the laminations was based mainly on the fact that my best guess is that once the glue joints on the laminated legs start to fail (as they inevitably will one day, whatever they are glued with) it will be game over for that table. So it makes sense IN THIS CASE to use a glue for the laminations which will last longest in the widest possible range of environments before first failing.

That's my best judgment based on my experience as a professional furniture maker and restorer, ie through seeing how furniture tends to degrade over very long time periods (in real life, not in the laboratory) and on my experience of what sort of repairs people are likely to think economic and worth doing.

I don't claim in any way that this definitely any kind of 'right answer'. Like so many things in this field it is just a tacit judgment based on my own particular experience, but for better or worse that is what I would do.

 

[MIGNAL]

You need to post on that Guitar and Violin forum. Seriously, nothing to do with time scales given how old some Violins and Guitars are. It doesn't break down like you suggest. If it did why on earth are there 350 year old violins with a perfectly intact centre seam? Go to the Ashmolean. There's a Strad Violin called the Messie, virtually untouched from the makers hand. It's still very much intact after 350 years! WHY??? Whilst you are there you can look at all the other Lutes/Guitars etc that are also still very much intact.
The only way Hide glue reacts as you described can be explained by bad preparation (over heating or repeated heating), using glue that has gone off (it's protein based) or it was a bad batch in the first place.

 

[marcus]

If it did why on earth are there 350 year old violins with a perfectly intact centre seam? Go to the Ashmolean. There's a Strad Violin called the Messie, virtually untouched from the makers hand. It's still very much intact after 350 years! WHY???

Because it's been properly looked after, obviously.

Did you actually read any of what I said?

 

[MIGNAL]

Very little. More likely that the Hide glue was properly prepared in the first place.

 

[Muswell]

If it did why on earth are there 350 year old violins with a perfectly intact centre seam? Go to the Ashmolean. There's a Strad Violin called the Messie, virtually untouched from the makers hand. It's still very much intact after 350 years! WHY???

Because it's been properly looked after, obviously.

Did you actually read any of what I said?

Leaving aside the Messiah which is in a museum, plenty of violins are working instruments whose strings have been under tension for hundreds of years and who have suffered variations in humidity and temperature. We know that hide glue joints will last for hundreds of years, and can be reglued easily, but what length of experience do we have of modern glues?

 

[marcus]

plenty of violins are working instruments whose strings have been under tension for hundreds of years and who have suffered variations in humidity and temperature.

And a great many of those have had to be re-glued and repaired! Re-glueing open seams is one of the most common repairs carried out on a violin!

 

[MIGNAL]

Expert on Violin repair now! Most common repair on a Violin is the Top or Back coming loose. It's deliberate, saves cracks due to humidity fluctuations. They use a weakened glue mixture. Centre seams coming apart is quite rare.

 

[marcus]

I'm a bit mystified by all this to be honest. Everything I have ever read and been taught has said that, though hide glue can last for hundreds of years when well cared for, it does have a relatively high susceptibility to environmental conditions. I have seen veneered furniture stored in damp places delaminate in spectacular style. I was told by a conservator that very dry conditions weaken can weaken hide-glued joints, and my experience backs this up. While I've met lots of people who swear by the stuff, including myself, I've never in my life come across anyone before claiming these sorts of super powers for it. It's glue, not kryptonite!

Rather randomly, here's what the US national parks Museum Service says about in their Guide for Curatorial Care of Wooden Objects.

Animal products are the primary ingredients in protein-based glues. Historically, the two most commonly used varieties were hide glue and fish glue. These were heated to a gel before use. The glue set as it cooled and the water content evaporated. Because this type of glue is readily resoluble and has a long setting time, it is often used in the conservation treatment of furniture and other wood objects.

Though strong in a proper environment, protein-based glues are water- soluble and therefore fail in high relative humidity. At the other extreme, very low relative humidity, the glue will dry and crack causing the joint to fail.

Anyway, it's clear that opinion is split and this doesn't seem to be going anywhere very productive so I think we will probably have to agree to disagree.

I'm sorry that the conversation seems to have become so personal. For what it's worth I'm sure you, Mignal, are a highly skilled craftsperson who in the normal way of things I would respect a great deal, not withstanding your views on hide glue, and it's a shame we couldn't discuss this without falling into such apparent ill feeling. My apologies to you and the list for my part in that.

I don't really have anything to add to what I've written so someone else can have the last word if they want it. In the mean time, OP, we agonise about these things, but to be honest whatever you do will be fine for many years!

 

[Mr T]

Hi

I rather cautiously step into this heated debate, it's only glue chaps, not life and death.

I think gluing up wide surfaces without a glue line as originally suggested is asking a lot of hide glue so why not use something else. We often adhere (giddit) to materials or practices just because they are traditional, just because that's how it has always been done doesn't mean it is now necessarily the best way.

I restore furniture and use hide glue if that was the original glue used. As a restorer I see plenty of hide glue joints that have failed. Also think of all the furniture that has been thrown out because it's fallen to bits. The antiques we have now are just a fraction of the furniture originally produced, similarly with instruments. Many that have fallen by the wayside will have done so due to glue failure, we just see the lucky few that had perfect glue, been kept in perfect conditions or been repaired repeatedly.

If getting the mix right and not heating the glue too much etc is so critical, and you won't find out if you got it right until it fails 100 years later suggests that hide glue does not have an advantage. I would suggest cascamite.

That's my opinion, but hey it's only glue!

Chris